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I dislike Joffrey, Sansa, and Viserys.

Kyrea21 (talk) 18:47, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

You're really asking two questions: which character is the most boring/annoying, judged as a literary/cinematic character and writing skill on the creator's part, vs who do we personally dislike, pretending they're real characters?

Pretending they're real characters, the one I hate the most is probably Cersei, with Littlefinger a close second. I don't particularly hate Joffrey...why?

You see the whole point of Joffrey is that he's clearly insane, he's a homicidal maniac. The thing George R.R. Martin wanted to explore is "why do people follow orders they know to be wrong?" -- why the heck do people keep treating Joffrey as the king? Even the other's not just that he's their puppet to be king. Removing morality from it, simply from a point of pure practicality, he's "a vicious idiot" who causes more problems than he solves. So why do his Kingsguard still eagerly beat up little girls in PUBLIC when Joffrey orders it?

So you see Joffrey isn't really a "person" so much as a force of nature, and the real point isn't "he's evil" - we know he is. It's a question of how everyone else reacts around him. Joffrey's insane, he doesn't know better....but the characters who allegedly do know better are cowards who "just follow orders" matter how ridiculous. Even when, removed from a question of "good" or "evil", his orders are simply self-defeating. He's an incompetent.

Nor do I hate characters who....acknowledge how evil they are, or at least don't actively try to pass themselves off as moral. There's no hypocrisy there. Littlefinger disgusts me because he's a flesh-monger and the whole smug, creepy stalker-thing he's got going with Catelyn and Sansa. Just how petty that is. But Littlefinger doesn't particularly think of himself as a "good" person...even if he is far more destructive than Cersei could ever be.

But Cersei really takes it for me. It's her utter hypocrisy; Joffrey, Littlefinger, all the rest; they know what they are.

In contrast, Cersei...well, when she gets her own POV chapters in the books this becomes more apparent, but you gradually realize just how delusional she actually is. Cersei has a warped view of reality in which she is a "good" person an everyone else is out to harm her and her children. You see if Cersei were to describe the events of the War of the Five Kings to someone else, she'd honestly present it as "the world is out to get me and my children for no reason". Jaime, in contrast, doesn't think of himself as a "good" person - he just thinks there's no such thing as a good person. But he never delusionally believed he was a "good" person".

Cersei also delusionally refuses to admit just how crazy Joffrey is; she's living out a fantasy that he's a perfect king, and in 17 years never...NOTICED that he's a psychopath (once or twice she'll occassionally express regret at him, the TV did this once...but the moments quickly fade and she convinces herself again of how great he is).

And the other side of that is....Cersei *doesn't* care about her children, only her mental constructs and fantasies of them. She doesn't care about or even really know "Joffrey, the crazed Caligula-like maniac"....she thinks he's this gallant knight. Meanwhile, she pretty much ignores her other children, Myrcella and Tommen. They actually point out in later books (and it's really awesome) that she barely knows her younger children.

So Cersei's utter, utter hypocrisy and self-centeredness are just despicable, as well as her delusional double-think - "crazy troll logic" - in which she honestly believes she's a nice person, wonderful mother, and smart queen. She's none of those things.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:18, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

Booo The Dragon Demands! Cersei is the Queen Bitch, literally ;) I love me some Lannisters! My least favorite is Jon Snow...only because his storyline bores me to tears. QueenBuffy35 Crown New Red 20:36, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

Joffrey and Cersei obviously - Joffrey for being a pyscho, and Cersei for being blind to it and just generally being a bitch. She seems incapable of eating any meal without it descending into an exchange of icy barbs.

However, I reserve particular loathing for Balon Greyjoy - he is an absolute swearword. His pig-headedness drives Theon to betray the Starks, obviously causing a great deal of trouble for the North but also ultimately resulting in Theon's current plight. He seems to take 'We do not sow' as  an absolute rule to live by, even when doing so is counter-productive. Taking rather than earning makes sense when your land is so small and unproductive, but to refuse any opportunity on principle alone is idiotic stubbornness. Allying with the North was a far more sound strategic move than the one he chose - a North/Riverlands/Iron Islands alliance would seem to me to be a very tough one to defeat outright, giving the North's size and the Iron Islands' naval strength, especially considering at the time Balon rejected Robb's offer an alliance between the Starks and Renly was yet to be scuppered. Instead, he chose to fight the North, and in doing so declared himself de facto at war with the Iron Throne by claiming the title of King of the Iron Islands.

I really don't see how the Iron Islands can come out of this well - if the North secures independence, then they will surely drive the ironborn back and try to exact revenge. If the North loses, then whoever ends up on the Iron Throne will surely want to force all his realms to submit to his authority, so the Iron Islands could well find themselves on the wrong end of the sort of defeat they suffered during the Greyjoy Rebellion, and second time around surely there would be no mercy of any sort for Balon or his family. After all, he has proven himself to be repeatedly disloyal, and indeed he seceded the very instant that Theon was returned to him. If I was on the Iron Throne, I would be tempted to supplant him with a strong loyal lord from elsewhere, like Robert did when giving Dragonstone to Stannis. Esnifador (talk) 21:06, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

The Balon/Theon scene was a bit longer in the books. Even Theon (not the greatest strategist) says it is absurd to attack the North, but Balon says he's "going after the low-hanging fruit". Remember that the ironborn aren't so much a warrior culture as a raiding culture; go for the easy prey. The war would have gone drastically different if Balon had done the obvious move, side with the Starks to defeat the Lannisters, and the North and Iron Islands will both secede from the Iron Throne. Yes, Robb's chances were difficult, but they weren't impossible...provided that the Greyjoys added their strength to his. So Theon points out that following this to its logical conclusion, what the heck does Balon think is going to happen? He's going to declare himself the independent king of the Iron Islands, conquer much of the North (its west coast)...and the Lannisters are going to do...what? Balon honestly thinks that Tywin Lannister, of all people, will "reward" him for his help attacking the Starks...reward him by letting him be an independent kingdom. Even Theon points out the logic behind this is flawed: from Tywin's perspective, attacking the Starks is what the Greyjoys should have done if they' stayed loyal to the Iron Throne in the FIRST PLACE! So why "reward" him for seceding the Iron Islands from the mainland? Again: even Theon points out how idiotic of a plan this is. Some blame Robb for leaving only a skeleton defense in the North, allowing Winterfell to fall to the Ironborn. Well, yeah...but it's the direct equivalent of if, say, during World War II, the United States decided "hmm...Britain must be distracted by Germany now...the time is ripe to invade Canada!" wasn't so much "Robb was foolish for trusting the ironborn" as "according to ALL conventional logic, the ironborn should have sided with the North, indeed it would be counter-productive not to side with them". --The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:59, May 1, 2013 (UTC)