Forum:Sigils in characters infoboxes

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What do you think? Kind of like they do at AWoIaF...

Stannis I Baratheon
World of Westeros
Season(s)	2, 3
Appeared in	7 episodes (see below)
First seen in	"The North Remembers"
Last seen in	"Valar Morghulis"

--Gonzalo84 (talk) 22:42, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea. But then I'm always for anything that adds to the information on a page. I've been looking for the sigil for House Payne, is there one around? And speaking of ASoiaFW, I've been trying to edit there but I can't log in.Ch'vyalthan (talk) 22:55, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

To log into ASoIaF wiki you must register at the Westeros.org forums. There's no "TV official" sigil for House Payne yet.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 00:02, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

Well with the pictures next to the name, that would be good. But in the current version there's a repetition of the image which doesn't really need to be there.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:47, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

The repeated image would be for the characters that only have "one affiliation", for aesthetic purposes, so the template looks balanced. For characters with two "affiliations" there would be one of each. For example:

Lysa Arryn File:Arryn.JPG
Political information
Title(s)	Lady Regent of the Vale Lady of the Eyrie
World of Westeros
Season(s)	1, 3
Appeared in	3 episodes (see below)
First seen in	"The Wolf and the Lion"
Last seen in	"The Pointy End"
Portrayed by	Kate Dickie

I also think each image should have a small border or frame... or be shaped like a tiny banner or shield. --Gonzalo84 (talk) 00:02, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

The Lysa format is great. I'm not sure if the image is too big.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:58, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

Your modification of the Jon Snow article raises an issue: how do we deal with Bastards? The HBO User's Guide hasn't provided use with official versions of the reversed bastard heraldry; AWIOAF uses heraldry with the reversed color scheme that bastards use. As for Jon Snow...he makes it a point that he "isn't a Stark", and I'm not sure if Jon was even old enough to have the opportunity to make use of bastard heraldry (a white direwolf on a grey background).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:45, December 9, 2012 (UTC)

The reversed heraldry is a really interesting idea, it sounds like something they would do in Westeros, but then what else have we come to expect from GRRM. As for sigils, I think two does look better even for characters who haven't changed them at some time. However, in the example on this page Stannis is shown with two flaming heart sigils, but Stannis used to have the same black stag on gold as Robert. It is that way on the Stannis page. Except that Robert added the little crown on the stag's head. I think that was Robert's only and Renly and Stannis should have a stag without a crown. I'm not certain. Ch'vyalthan (talk) 03:31, December 9, 2012 (UTC)

As for "A Wiki of Ice and Fire", I have registered in at the forum at Westeros.org, and I have logged in there, and even looked up my profile. Still, whenever I go to the Wiki I cannot log in, it says that my account name is not valid.Ch'vyalthan (talk) 03:30, December 9, 2012 (UTC)

"Sounds like a neat idea"? Yikes. For a guy who claims to spend so much time "checking the books" that you can't update an article on the Iron Throne room, you display shockingly little knowledge of this. For a guy who begs to be allowed to edit on A Wiki of Ice and Fire, you act as if you don't even read that either: the article on "Bastardy" at AWIOAF clearly explains why Bastards use different heraldry. Individual bastard characters such as Jon Snow have these on AWIOAF. You honestly didn't know this?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:34, December 9, 2012 (UTC)

I have probably read each of the first three books about four times each. The last two twice. And I don't go to forums, because I don't want to see speculation. So no I'm sorry I had not heard of it, I have only been editing for a month and a half, and I am still learning, but I do know quite a bit about the show and the books. I did a lot of work on the Riot of King's Landing and I don't think I did too bad a job on it. I never claimed to be omniscient. Ch'vyalthan (talk) 06:13, December 9, 2012 (UTC)

Only the sigils or symbols shown in the show or HBO website should be used. We'll keep Jon with his Stark and Night's Watch sigils until proven otherwise.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 05:36, December 10, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I agree.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:01, December 11, 2012 (UTC)

Question: How do we deal with married female characters? I had assumed that similar to AWOIAF, we would have one of their current, one of their old house. But the right or the left? Also what of men who use a personal sigil? Shouldn't Stannis be half classic Baratheon, half Dragonstone? (in the later books, it specified that he still uses the original Baratheon sigil alongside his personal one...possibly because with Renly dead, he's emphasizing that he's the only real Baratheon anymore.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:01, December 11, 2012 (UTC)

AWoIaF always uses the family sigil to the left, the married or personal one to the right... --Gonzalo84 (talk) 00:19, December 11, 2012 (UTC)

What also would be nice is to have a close up version of the Kingsguard crown symbol from the correct angle.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 06:30, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Alternatives would be to use the icon from the viewer's guide, or simply all-white. On a related note, I think we need to reach a consensus regarding the proper use of heraldry, as Loras' has been changed three times now. The Knight of the Flowers 16:40, December 21, 2012 (UTC)

We might discuss it on a case-by-case basis on each character talk-page. For example: Jorah Mormont was born in House Mormont, but he has sworn himself to Daenerys, so we use both Mormont and Targaryen sigils for him. Loras however didn't marry Renly or left his family and pledged himself to House Baratheon so I believe his infobox should remain Tyrell in both sides.

Also, I don't think castles and towns should include heraldry, just like a lord's household. For example the Red Keep has been Targaryen, Original Recipe Baratheon and Extra-Joffrey-Psycho-Lannispice Baratheon --Gonzalo84 (talk) 18:09, December 21, 2012 (UTC)

We could do, but wouldn't it get slightly tiresome? As I can foresee many such debates in the future, if Loras is anything to go by. It might be easier to either agree on using AWIOF as a model, or write up our own standards to go by.

In the case of Loras, he pledged himself to Renly's Kingsguard, and as the show neglected to give them any unique heraldry of their own (a nice rainbow cloak for example!) the stag sigil would be the next best thing. This also raises a point I've been meaning to ask - what will we do if certain events play out as they did in the books, and characters such as Loras require 3 + sets of heraldry? At present this will not be possible, as the way we are formatting the infoboxes does not leave room for more than two. The Knight of the Flowers 15:06, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

For characters who may switch sides a lot, I think we just go with broad brushstrokes, or only their most immediate allegiance; i.e. keep using the "House Tyrell" banner, even if the Tyrells switch from Renly to the Lannisters.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:08, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

Makes sense. So, for example if Loras joined the Kingsguard, that would replace Renly's sigil, rather than sitting next to it? In that case I do think that heraldry could/should go in the infoboxes without issue, as we can just apply the same logic, and only use the sigil of the current holder. The Knight of the Flowers 12:11, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

The Night's Watch officially has no sigil, so I loaded up a black field to use. This is what AWOIAF does. I'm sorry Knight of the Flowers, at first I considered using the black raven symbol from the HBO viewer's guide too, but it is in error; the Night's Watch doesn't actually have a black raven sigil. Ravens are used all over Westeros. It just became a common nickname to call them "black crows" because of their all black "uniforms". So I think those should be switched back to just solid black. You said that: "Official image from the HBO viewer's guide. The show never explicitly states that the watch has no sigil, unlike in the books." Well they never stated it in dialogue, but they never said that they use a raven sigil either. I think the website people on HBO just thought it looked too plain on their online guide, but that doesn't mean we should. No raven sigil has been established in the TV series.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:35, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

True that, but I think at this stage, without confirmation, it's open to interpretation. The reason I changed it (and I did think long and hard before doing so) is that the raven is not used solely to illustrate the Night's Watch page, it's literally used as heraldry on family trees for characters such as Aemon. I genuinely believe that, as a strict guide to the show, not the books, the raven/crow sigil is the better option, for the time being at least. I assume it's for that reason we did not use all-white for the Kingsguard, as AWOIAF do? Because the show provides us with alternatives that are more accurate for a Game of Thrones encyclopedia? Incidentally, it's for that reason that I think Renly's sigil should go in Loras' infobox. Although in that case it's because the show didn't give us anything else to use. The Knight of the Flowers 20:07, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

P.S. And needless to say, if the consensus is that we should revert to the all-black field I will take responsibility for changing them back. The Knight of the Flowers 20:20, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

More of a minor quibble, really; I'll go with whatever the admins decide, I'm not deeply attached on this issue.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:12, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I prefer the full black field. As for the Kingsguard, I think the cropped helmet thingy should be cleaned up, or find a good image of the kingsguard symbol.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:56, January 5, 2013 (UTC)