Forum:The Cargo Cult

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A "cargo cult" is when a phenomenon in which indigenous peoples who had been visited by missionaries or ships from modern society would build mock airplanes out of branches and leaves, in the hopes of attracting the visitors back. This was done with almost religious veneration, but it was largely because they wanted material benefits - visitors would gift them gifts such as canned food, etc. Similarly, any who have read Arthur C. Clarke's 2010: Odyssey Two will note that the primitive indigenous Europans started building piles of junk metal from crashed probes, speculated to be a form of cargo cult practice.

Around late Season 2, writer and "loremaster" on the TV series Bryan Cogman shut down his Twitter account. As Cogman explained, he was just getting inundated with questions about Game of Thrones, or simple harassment from internet trolls complaining about minor changes.

Two basic principles are in effect. First, there is no way that the writers could ever hope to field fan questions from an unfiltered source such as Twitter, without running into internet trolls and harassers. Something cast and crew in TV and film often have trouble recognizing is that this is an utterly small fraction of the fanbase: if you get 10,000 pieces of hate-mail, that doesn't mean 10,000 people don't like you, that means one obsessed idiot wrote 10,000 hate-mails. This is utterly disproportionate to their number and ruining it for the rest of us.

Second, even if everyone were well-intentioned...this is a TV show viewed by tens of thousands of people. Odds are...the overwhelming number of questions directed at cast & crew are generic, overlapping, and simply shallow questions: endless questioning of "do you enjoy working on the show?" (of course they do!).

In contrast, a wiki provides the opportunity to 1 - weed out and prevent harassment by providing a safe environment for questions, and 2 - Administrators can act as a filter to only put forward significant questions relating to "lore".

That being said, questions should focus more on clarification of solid facts, not opinions. Thus "is Theon supposed to be bad" is an utterly subjective question which has no realistic hope of a solid answer. In contrast, "is the Grand Maester considered the head of the Order of Maesters, or is the Conclave of Archmaesters the leader?" is an objective question with a potential fact-based answer.

Unfortunately, we have no means of contacting the writing staff at present. And remember: guys, the writing staff does more to "create" Game of Thrones and know more about it than the actors do. Some of the actors research their own characters very well, but fundamentally, the words they speak and actions they perform are penned by the writers.

At any rate, the thought occurred that, much like a "cargo cult", a good way to attract writers to answer our questions is to make an actual list of questions. Good, fact-based questions, on a "if you build it, they will come" principle. The best way to let the writers know we have fact-based questions about changes in adaptation is to have an actual list of legitimate questions....as opposed to begging them to do Q&A; they'd shrug us off as "more fans who want to ask why Tyrion is so funny".

The idea is that the Admins will filter questions that go onto this list.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:39, March 17, 2013 3 (UTC)

I have left a message for Bryan Cogman asking him to stop by. Whether he does or not is another question. I imagine he's quite busy working on the show :) --Werthead (talk) 15:14, March 31, 2013 (UTC)

Questions about "lore" resulting from changes in adaptation, and their repercussions for the "TV-continuity"

Geography from The Lands of Ice and Fire

Season 1 didn't have a map of anything east of the Free Cities. Season 2's HBO Viewer's Guide then showed an expanded worldmap of all of Essos east of the Free Cities to Vaes Dothraki in the northeast and Qarth in the southeast. However, between Seasons 2 and 3, the book-canon official mapbook The Lands of Ice and Fire was released, ship shows new maps of everything going east to Asshai. More importantly, the Jade Sea has been considerably changed, so it's northern shore is roughly at the same latitude as Qarth (thus making Bayasabhad and Shamyran landlocked now). Will these be the new official map locations for the TV continuity as well?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:25, March 20, 2013 (UTC)

Answered now: the Season 3 Viewer's Guide continues to use the Season 2 world map. We can assume that canonically, Essos looks different in the TV show to the books.--Werthead (talk) 12:15, April 1, 2013 (UTC)

They didn't update it for Season 3, but does this mean the geography in the show is officially different? Or that they just haven't gotten around to updating their maps?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:34, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

Aging up the characters

We’ve been trying to make an accurate Timeline for the TV continuity, taking into account the added two years between Robert’s Rebellion and the death of Jon Arryn (so that Robert’s Rebellion was 17 years ago, not 15 years as in the books). In which case, when exactly did those extra two years happen? Because certain events which happened during Robert’s reign get moved around a bit. The Greyjoy Rebellion was nine years before the beginning in the books, and I believe that’s the same in the TV series. In which case, do we insert those extras two years earlier in Robert’s reign? And there are other little things such as changing the amount of time the Targaryens lived with Illyrio Mopatis from six months to over a year.

Many questions resulting from aging up the characters: in the first episode, Sansa states that she is 13 and Bran that he is 10, which is aged up two years from the TV show. Just as HBO made an official on-set pronunciation guide for Season 1, do you have a chart of what all of the character ages are?

Also, has the legal age of adulthood in the Seven Kingdoms been changed for the TV series? In the books, it was 16 years old, and Samwell Tarly’s father disinherited him on his 15th nameday, as he was approaching the age of adulthood. However, in “Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things”, this was changed so that Sam now says his father disinherited him on his 18th nameday; so was the age of adulthood moved up to 18 in the TV-continuity, to match the age of the actors?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Moreover, Sansa states that she is she is "fourteen" to Tyrion on their wedding night in "Second Sons". However, Sansa stated on screen in "Winter is Coming" that she is thirteen. Unlike the books (in which time is a bit variable), the TV series seems to be sticking to a "one season equals one year" rule (Robert's Rebellion was "17 years ago" in Season 1, but Renly says it was "18 years ago" in Season 2). Thus, logically, shouldn't Sansa be fifteen in Season 3 on her wedding night? Was Sansa lying about her age to try to appear younger, in order to shame Tyrion for their forced marriage? Or, is it simply that "two years" have passed in broad terms, and Sansa's fifteenth nameday is a few weeks away? (in which case, she's fourteen, going on fifteen?). --The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:50, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Joffrey's age

Joffrey is stated to be 17 years old in the TV series at the time of the Battle of the Blackwater, as stated in "The Prince of Winterfell". Most of the younger characters in the TV series were aged-up by about two years compared to their book counterparts (i.e. Sansa states that she is 13 years old in the first episode of Season 1, but is 11 in the first novel). Making Joffrey 17 years old in the TV series drastically increases his age relative to the other characters, however, as he is stated to be only 13 years old during the Battle of the Blackwater in the novels (the Tournament he holds in the beginning of book/Season 2 is to celebrate his nameday).

This would make TV-Joffrey 16 years old in Season 1, which is stated to be 17 years after Robert and Cersei were married at the end of Robert's Rebellion (which was increased from 15 years ago in the TV series). Cersei also states that she became pregnant with a son by Robert at the very beginning of her marriage who died in infancy.

Assuming that Cersei's first son died even a few days after birth, this requires a nine month pregnancy, plus another nine month pregnancy before Joffrey was born (assuming she became pregnant quite soon after her first son died), meaning Joffrey could have been born no earlier than sixteen and a half years before the beginning of the narrative - drastically increasing Joffrey's age to sixteen years old in Season 1 strains the plausibility of this timetable: was drastically increasing his age by FOUR years instead of two like the other characters a dialogue error in "The Prince of Winterfell", in order to make a forced comparison between Joffrey and how Jaime was such a skilled warrior at seventeen that he became the youngest man ever to join the Kingsguard.?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:34, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

Cersei's age and the Reyne Rebellion

Several of the dates that Cersei Lannister gives for major events in her life do not match up. First, in the books, Cersei was eight or nine years old when her mother Joanna died...in the TV series, she explicitly says in "Blackwater" that she was four years old -- thus, Cersei and Jaime are about eight years older than Tyrion (as Joanna died giving birth to him), instead of only four years older. Why was this changed?

But there's a more important problem raised: in "Second Sons", Cersei tells Margaery the story of the Reyne Rebellion (to present it in a regular episode right before The Rains of Castamere episode). Cersei says that the Reynes rebelled against her father Tywin; loosely speaking this is true, but Tywin's father Tytos Lannister was still alive and it was he who they were rebelling against, though it was Tywin who put down the rebellion as his son and heir.

More importantly, the rebellion occurred when Tywin was very young, indeed it was seen as quite impressive that such a young man performed so well in war (ironically, somewhat like the future Robb Stark). Tywin possibly wasn't even married yet, however, and Cersei certainly had not been born yet.

The simple numbers don't match well: Tywin was appointed as Hand of the King soon after he put down the rebellion, and served in that position for twenty years. Tywin resigned a few years before Robert's Rebellion broke out, then another fifteen years passed before the War of the Five Kings (seventeen in the TV series). Thus the Reyne Rebellion had to have occurred roughly forty years before the War of the Five Kings, which would require Cersei to be at least ten years older than she actually is in order to remember it.

Cersei in the books and actress Lena Headey are both in their mid-thirties when the story begins, but Cersei would have to be at least in her mid-forties to remember the rebellion of House Reyne.

I don't know how to reconcile these numbers.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:32, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Margaery Tyrell and family

Unrelated to this aging-up is that Natalie Dormer was cast as Margaery Tyrell on the strength of her audition, despite the fact that she’s slightly older than book-Margaery (a decision I fully support, as I jumped out of my socks at hearing that Anne Boleyn would play Margaery Tyrell). In the books, Robb and Margaery are the same age, but in the TV series, Natalie is four years older than actor Richard Madden. Is Margaery also officially four years older in the TV series? (if there is indeed a timeline and chart of character ages, specifically how old is Margaery?) The point is, Dormer is also four years older than Finn Jones (Loras Tyrell); while in the books, Margaery was actually a year younger than Loras, and the fourth youngest out of the four Tyrell siblings after her three brothers. So in the TV-continuity, is the age difference just taken with a wink and a grin, or is Margaery now officially older than Loras, making her the third Tyrell sibling and Loras the fourth? If so, would this even change much, given that they’re fairly close in age and it’s a patriarchal society in which Loras is in line of succession ahead of Margaery anyway? (Loras would still keep his three-roses personal sigil as he’s still a third son). If you think about it, shifting who is the older and who is the younger sibling might affect the character dynamic in how Dormer and Jones play their roles.

There’s been some fan chatter that Willas and Garlan Tyrell might be cut from the TV continuity to streamline it; I don’t really think this is necessary, as they’re really “mentioned-only” characters in the books anyway – you just need them to mention Willas, not cast another character to clutter things. Some have gone so far as to speculate that Loras would be the *only* Tyrell son, which would complicate things considerably. Can anyone go on record to debunk this?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Alright, now we're really worried Willas and Garlan were cut, because in "Kissed by Fire" Tywin acts as if Loras is "the" Tyrell heir.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:13, April 29, 2013 (UTC)

Answered: Bryan Cogman said in interviews that Margaery is indeed older than Loras in the TV continuity. He also said that for the moment, Willas and Garlan are in a limbo-state, much as Shireen was during Season 2, during which they aren't sure if they'll be included later. They stressed Loras as "the heir of Highgarden" to such a degree that I don't think that can be revised, but I hold out hope that later seasons will retroactively establish Willas and Garlan as Loras' younger brothers.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:36, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

Identity of Margaery's handmaidens/cousins in Season 3?

When Margaery Tyrell arrives in King's Landing to wed Joffrey she is accompanied by three handmaidens, Elinor Tyrell, Megga Tyrell, and Alla Tyrell. The girls are all her cousins, daughters of different cadet branches of House Tyrell. Elinor Tyrell is the only one of the three to have reached puberty.

In "Walk of Punishment", Olenna is sitting in the gardens with two handmaidens, one of whom (credited as only "Tyrell lady") calls her "nana", i.e. grandmother, implying she is a cousin of Margaery's (and that the second girl present might be as well). They are both young adults, not pre-pubescent girls, but like many characters in the TV adaptation they were probably simply aged-up (much as Margaery is only 16 in the novels, but this is technically considered a "young adult" in their medieval society).

Also, Lady Margaery has two different handmaidens in "Valar Dohaeris"; the one with speaking lines is credited only as "Margaery's handmaiden".

It would be kind of fun if these become recurring background characters for the Tyrell scenes at King's Landing (which will become more prominent as the show goes on). In particular, one even identified herself as a granddaughter of Olenna.

So, do these background cast members correspond to any of the minor Tyrell characters from the books? I.e. will it be confirmed that "Tyrell lady" is in fact "Elinor Tyrell"? It helps us make the family tree charts. I know that in the grand scheme of things Margaery's handmaidens aren't really major characters, but it helps the drama if people have names. Or, conversely, are you *actively avoiding* giving names to the background handmaiden characters, because if they have to be recast you don't want to be tied down for what are really only minor roles?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:12, July 30, 2013 (UTC)

Robb Stark and repercussions from not splitting up his army for Whispering Wood

Changes were made to the disposition of Robb Stark’s army in the War of the Five Kings, removing the story of his eastern army-group in Seasons 1 and 2. These have major repercussions.

In the books, the Northern forces are divided into two army-groups, one in the west commanded by Robb Stark (about 5,000 cavalry), and one in the east commanded by Roose Bolton (with about 16,000 infantry). So Bolton had three times as many “men” but Robb’s force was entirely cavalry while Bolton’s was infantry, so let’s call it even and say that Robb and Roose each roughly commanded “half” of the Northern army. The Battle of Green Fork was indeed, a faint, but instead of sending a force of only 2,000 men which was annihilated (as in the TV version), Bolton’s command consisted of 16,000 men. While Bolton certainly lost men, the whole point of the battle was just to distract Tywin’s army-group, and when the battle appeared lost Bolton withdrew in good order. This allowed Robb Stark’s half of the army, numbering about 5,000 cavalry, to attack Jaime Lannister’s army-group besieging Riverrun. The Northern forces were of course bolstered by four thousand Frey levies on their way south (16 minus 4 equals 12 thousand specifically Northern infantry), which is something like 10% of the forces of the Riverlands.

After Robb is declared king, the forces of House Tully and the Riverlords join him (out of gratitude and because he’s Hoster Tully’s grandson). This may have added another 30-40,000 men to Robb’s faction, albeit most of the Riverlands armies stay in the Riverlands to fight Tywin’s army-group. Meanwhile, Robb takes his cavalry to invade the Westerlands, resulting in Oxcross. With Tywin retreating south, Bolton’s half of the Northern army advances south, ultimately capturing Harrenhal.

Anyway, the TV series simplified Bolton’s army-group to just 2,000 men sent to Green Fork as a feint and completely exterminated (narratively, this might have gotten too cluttered at the end of Season 1). Indeed, at the beginning of Season 2, we see that Bolton is actually still with Robb, and remains with him all season. The problem, of course, is that this change means that instead of dividing the Northern forces roughly in half, so Robb had 5,000 cavalry at Whispering Wood, he now has the bulk of the army at 18,000 (+4,000 Freys), and only lost a screener force of two thousand at Greek Fork.

Jaime Lannister’s army-group in the books was 15,000 strong (of which 3,000 were cavalry); thus the drama at Whispering Wood is that Robb was outnumbered “three-to-one” but through brilliant tactics was able to take Jaime’s army-group by surprise an annihilate it.

Instead of dividing Robb’s army in half (roughly), now the bulk of the army is with Robb at Whispering Wood, (roughly) doubling his forces. Now, in the TV version, Tywin explicitly tells Jaime that the standing Lannister armies in the Riverlands number 60,000, and he orders Jaime to talk “half” – 30,000 – to besiege Riverrun. My functional guess is that to maintain the drama of “Robb is outnumbered two or three to one” at Whispering Wood, the TV version doubled the size of the Lannister army from 15,000 to 30,000, to make it seem like more of a threat to Robb’s 18-22,000 strong army. All of this resulted from removing the eastern army group under Roose Bolton’s command, to simplify the story in late Season 1.

The problem is….the Westerlands cannot possibly sustain an army that large. An average-sized “kingdom” in Westeros can field 30-40,000 men – such as the Vale or Westerlands. The North has a smaller population (also it’s more spread out and more difficult to rally armies in a hurry when they call the bannermen), so it’s army is around 20,000 men. Dorne is in the 10,000 range, and the Iron Islands are also lightly populated. The Reach, in contrast, is stated to be able to raise almost twice as many soldiers as any other kingdom, due to its fertile lands and large population: in the area of 60,000 men.

When the standing army of the Westerlands was doubled to 60,000 in the TV series, this wasn’t proportionately increased for the other kingdoms relative to the Westerlands. When the Tyrells joined the Lannisters in the books, it effectively tripled the size of the armies at their disposal (more like increased by a factor of 4 to 5, when you consider the smaller size of the Lannister army after the severe losses it took from Robb Stark). The TV series changed this so the Westerlands can now, apparently, raise an army as large as that of the Reach, lessening the impact of House Tyrell siding with the Lannisters.

How can we possibly hope to reconcile this numerical discrepancy? If you change one thing, you change everything. Butterfly effect.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

In a recent interview, George R.R. Martin pointed out he deliberately makes field reports about how the war is going give fuzzy and contradicting numbers, because real-life medieval battles don't have accurate numbers and each side gives a different figure or simply miscounted; i.e. we only hear about the Battle of Oxcross in reports from ravens that filter back to Riverrun during the second novel, numbers are intentionally hazy. As Martin himself said:

"The Battle of Agincourt was either 4,000 Frenchmen and 5,000 Englishmen, according to the French, or between 200,000 Frenchmen and 7 Englishmen, who were all armed with fruit knives, according to the English version. So I deliberately do that in my numbers of armies and things like that. Which are different."

Keeping this in mind, Tywin should have at least known how many men were in his own army...shouldn't he? Or can we retcon this back by saying "Tywin just had a grossly inflated view of how big his army was?"....I don't think we can. You needed to have Robb outnumbered two-to-one at Whispering Wood, but simplified the story to have almost his entire army at Riverrun with only a token feint force destroyed at Green Fork. This would either mean that Robb had to face Jaime with an equally sized-army (less dramatic) or, that you double the size of the Lannister army. Of course, the battle happened off-screen anyway, and only obsessive book fans would notice. I mean, if the intent was "TV-first viewers need to understand how awesome this off-screen battle was", members of my own family who were watching it for the first time had little idea what Whispering Wood was other than that Jaime was captured, so I had to explain to them that this was an Agincourt or Poiters-scale disaster for the Lannisters (yet you even have Kevan say "Jaime's army is destroyed, this is a catastrophe!" - what do we have to do for these TV-first fans, draw 'em a diagram?! Even when we made the sodding diagram they were still confused!--The Dragon Demands (talk) 06:50, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Battle of Yellow Fork

The TV series apparently renamed the "Battle of Ashemark" to the "Battle of the Yellow Fork". In the books, after Robb's victory at Oxcross, his army goes on to raid the northern Westerlands and scores a relatively minor victory at Ashemark (minor because there's only skeleton garrisons in the Westerlands after Oxcross and with Tywin's army in the Riverlands) - though he does sack the castle with little opposition. In the TV series, this is also apparently a minor victory post-Oxcross; all we hear is Rickard Karstark say they've got too many prisoners after "Yellow Fork" and not enough cages for them all. Why was it renamed? Because you were afraid TV-first viewers might confuse it with the Battle of Ashford during Robert's Rebellion? (which was fought in the Reach). Also, no geographical feature named "Yellow Fork" has appeared in the books so far. The major river in the northern Westerlands is the Tumblestone, a tributary of the Red Fork of the Trident. However, maps show the Tumblestone fed by at least one major tributary itself, not too far from Ashemark - so is the "Yellow Fork" a tributary of the Tumblestone? This would fit with the overall naming scheme for the Trident River system.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 06:50, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Battle of Stone Mill

Is the Battle of Stone Mill the same thing as the Battle of the Fords in the books? In the books it was more of a "campaign" attacking multiple points along the river at once, but the main thrust was at Stone Mill (made sense to give it a more distinct name). The TV series only describes it as Edmure attacking Gregor Clegane (instead of Gregor attacking the fords) - was Gregor commanding the vanguard of the main Lannister army under Tywin, in which case Tywin's overall army was involved, or was this demoted to a much smaller, regional engagement? You see, the real problem is...did the "Battle of Stone Mill" happen before or after the Battle of the Blackwater? If it happened before, it takes the place of the Battle of the Fords; the point being that the Lannister army was pent up in the Riverlands as a result when the whole idea was to lure them into the Westerlands and away from King's Landing....but if it took place after Blackwater, then it had little overeall impact on the entire war (I note that King John used the same tactic during his final confrontation with King Philip II; he burned-out France-allied Brittany to try to lure the Capetian King away from Normandy...though the trick didn't work, Philip II was smart enough not to take the bait).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:56, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

A deleted scene from Season 3 establishes that at Stone Mill the Lannisters lost 400 men dead, 100 men taken prisoner, while the Riverlords lost only 208 men. So clearly this wasn't the campaign-level engagement that the Battle of the Fords was in the books -- but the question still stands: did Stone Mill in the TV continuity take place before the Battle of the Blackwater? In this respect, it was the TV version of the Battle of the Fords, wasn't it? (the books never explicitly state if Gregor took part in the Battle of the Blackwater or not, but the question remains: in the books, the attempt was to lure the main Lannister army-group across the Red Fork; was it the same in the TV series, or more of a specific goal to knock out Gregor Clegane and remove a major Lannister general?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:51, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

Cutting King Jaehaerys II Targaryen?

In the TV series, In Season 1 episode 9, "Baelor", Maester Aemon states that "My father was Maekar, the First of his Name. My brother Aegon reigned after him, when I had refused the throne, and he was followed by his son Aerys, whom they called the Mad King." -- Thus it seems that the TV-continuity has omitted Jaehaerys II (who was sickly and ruled only a few short years, but ruled well in those years)...apparently to simplify the relationship between Aemon, Aerys II, and Daenery. Has Jaehaerys II been officially removed? How was the decision made to remove him? What about the wider ramifications of this? Particularly for the Tales Dunk and Egg prequels (now being discussed as an HBO project!), Jaehaerys was Egg’s son (Egg being Aegon V), and removing him would make Egg the father of the Mad King. And Aerys was insane due to his incestuous parentage, while Aegon V apparently married for love outside of the family (though of course, it was compound generations of 300 years of inbreeding).

Moreover, this affects how the TV-continuity will establish the relationship between the Targaryens and Baratheons. In the books, Jaehaerys' sister Rhaelle was the mother of Steffon Baratheon, father of the three Baratheon brothers (Robert, Stannis, Renly). Robert's claim to the throne (and by extension, Stannis and Renly's) was based on this "bit of dragon-blood". Is this now moved around so that Rhaelle is a sister of Aegon V? (in place of Rhae and Daella? Or perhaps alongside them?)....OR, can the TV series later retcon this and just say that Aegon meant to say "grandson" and as a 100 year old man angrily recounting the fall of his House, it was just a slip of the tongue?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Cogman confirmed in another interview on WinterIsComing.net that Jaehaerys II is indeed cut in the TV continuity, and Aegon V (Egg) is Aerys II's father (indeed, I'm the one who submitted the question he answered). Well we know the change was made, but why was it made?

And more importantly, how then did the Baratheons intermarry with the Targaryens? Did they marry Aegon V's sisters instead of Jaehaerys' sisters? In which case, did those characters get condensed or renamed? You see, we can't update the full House Targaryen family tree on here until we have clearly established relationships. Changing this leads to wider changes. Butterfly effect.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:14, April 29, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, new information: the Season 3 "Histories & Lore" featurette for Robert's Rebellion narrated by Varys and Littlefinger has Varys state that Robert Baratheon had Targaryen blood "through his mother" -- we weren't sure if:

1 - Robert's paternal grandmother was a Targaryen, as in the books, or

2 - The TV-continuity only counts his "Targaryen blood" from Orys Baratheon...which also descended through the male line.

Though on the other hand, Orys was never officially acknowledged as a Targaryen bastard. Irrelevant now: the TV continuity now says that he had Targaryen blood through his mother? Was Robert and Stannis's mother still Cassana Baratheon? Or did you simply remove a generation, so his father Steffon married Rhaelle Targaryen directly? If that is the case, then Cassana doesn't exist in the TV continuity. Or did Cassana have Targaryen blood?

The older question still stands: if we remove Jaehaerys II, but Rhaelle was his sister, and Rhaelle married into the Baratheon family....where now do we place Rhaelle in the family tree? Or will you make a new composite character? Or is she Aegon V's sister now? Or something?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:56, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

While I'm on the subject, if Jaehaerys II is indeed removed from the TV continuity, in which case "Jaehaerys I, grandson of Aegon the Conqueror" is the only king named "Jaehaerys", there isn't really much reason to specify that his name was "Jaehaerys the First", anymore than someone would in casual conversation refer to "King Rober the First". Thus, why is it that when Samwell Tarly in "The Rains of Castamere" is explaining what the Nightfort is, he specifies that "the Watch abandoned it during the reign of King Jaehaerys the First"...if he was the only King Jaehaerys?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:07, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Cersei and Robert's first black-haired child, and namedays

In Season 1, Cersei Lannister says her firstborn baby, who died of a fever, was a black-haired son who was her only biological child with Robert Baratheon. Cersei had no child with Robert in the books, not even a stillbirth, and indeed she says she once had an abortion rather than have Robert’s child. At first, we thought she was just lying to Catelyn, but later in Season 1 she speaks about “when we lost our first boy” to Robert, which indicates that this actually happened. How and why was this change made? Further, even when speaking with Robert she doesn't mention the child's name: people in the Seven Kingdoms don’t have “birthdays”, they have “namedays” – functionally equivalent to birthdays because babies are named on the day they are born (the only exception in Westeros to this are the wildlings, who due to high infant mortality north of the Wall, don’t name their babies until they reach two years of age). This being the case, did Cersei and Robert’s baby never receive an official name, because it did not survive long enough for the naming ceremony/baptism a few hours later? Did GRRM come up with a name for it in the TV continuity? A royal child is kind of important, even if it died in infancy.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

While we're on the subject, was the legal age of majority changed in the TV series? All of the younger characters were slightly aged up (usually by about two years) due to censorship issues. In "Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things", Samwell Tarly says that his father forced him to leave home and join the Night's Watch on his "eighteenth nameday" as he was "almost a man now", not his fifteenth nameday as in the books. The books clearly state that sixteen years old is the age of majority. Thus was the age of majority also officially increased from sixteen to eighteen in the TV series, to correspond to the now aged-up characters? I.e. Robb Stark was on the verge of turning sixteen in the books, now he's on the verge of turning eighteen in Season 1, and thus in both continuities, you wanted him to be "on the verge of the legal age of majority by a few months" when the story started?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:37, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

On-screen text for geographic locations

So far, only the first episode "Winter is Coming" has used on-screen text to identify locations: King's Landing, Winterfell, and Pentos. We've heard that there were quite a few problems gauging how much information to put into the first episode: not so much that new viewers are deluged with information, but not so little that they're left in the dark. The face-palm inducing fact that even after watching the pilot episode, people Benioff & Weiss screened it for honestly didn't know that Tyrion and Cersei were siblings - hence, as explained in the Blu-ray commentary, how the production team had to go back in and insert many lines where people clearly enunciate what their familial relationships are (I still ran into first-time viewers who didn't understand all of the relationships, even though I thought it kind of obvious).

Anyway, what was the discussion that led to using on-screen text in the first episode? What was the discussion that led to dropping the use of these afterwards? Was it perhaps felt that the astrolabe-style opening sequence panning over a map with names written on it was sufficient? Might we ever see the on-screen text return? (i.e. Dorne has been barely mentioned until now, so might we need on-screen text to say: "Sunspear, capital of Dorne, seat of House Martell"?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:26, August 28, 2013 (UTC)

Renaming the three-eyed crow

Why is the "Three-eyed crow" consistently referred to as the "Three-eyed raven" in the TV show? Why was it renamed?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:38, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Why don't ravens talk in the TV series?

In the books, the messenger-ravens of Westeros often replicate simple human speech in the manner of parrots. Granted, rather than use this faculty to express deep emotional or philosophical quandries, they more often than not just beg for "Corn! Corn!" like idiots (i.e. Jeor Mormont's pet raven, cut from the TV series for some reason). Even so, I was utterly startled by the nightmare-inducing revelation that real-life ravens can actually do this, it's not something George R.R. Martin invented. Real-life ravens just aren't coaxed to do it as frequently as pet parrots are. As opposed to parrots, however, which have high-pitched voices, real-life ravens have a much deeper vocal range and can thus (if given sufficient training) make disturbingly accurate replications of human speech (check out this video). Originally I thought the ravens in the TV series don't mimic human words because the producers thought it was "too fantasy", but then I learned his isn't magical or made-up, ravens can actually do this. So why haven't they done this before, and will they ever in the future?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 06:33, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Westeros and the Age of a Hundred Kingdoms

The HBO Viewer’s Guide, and to an extent the Complete Guide, imply that there always were “Seven Kingdoms” in Westeros. In the books, it’s explained that their used to be hundreds of tiny kingdoms in Westeros, in which every local lord called himself a king; this is why the Andals were able to successfully conquer the disunited First Men. Then again we do have legends of characters like Bran the Builder being “King in the North” in the books…even though the books later say that the Boltons were their own separate kingdom who didn’t swear fealty to the Starks until only a thousand years ago. Martin calls this era of Westerosi history, between the Andal Invasion and the Targaryen Conquest, “the Age of a Hundred Kingdoms” (from excerpts of World of Ice and Fire that we’ve seen…maybe the era began at the end of the War for the Dawn). At any rate, even in the books, characters might loosely refer to the Starks as “King in the North” long before the North was united under one king (I suspect they were loose over-kings of a confederation of minor kings, sort of like how Irish over-kings would unite the numerous tiny kingdoms in Ireland to respond to the threat of Viking attacks). But the ancillary materials for the TV series such as the HBO Viewer’s Guide or Complete Guide simply state that “the Andals founded Seven Kingdoms in Westeros” – when in the books, the “seven kingdoms” aggregated over many thousands of years. Is this *officially* different in the TV series continuity? That there always were Seven Kingdoms, even six thousand years ago in the immediate aftermath of the Andal Invasion? Because in the books, a unified “Kingdom of the Reach” did exist, but it may have predated the Targaryen Conquest by only a few centuries. We’ve been debating this quite a bit.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Jaime Lannister and dyslexia

In Season 2 it was mentioned that Jaime Lannister has a dyslexia-like condition. This hasn’t been mentioned in the books yet; is it something George R.R. Martin mentioned to the writers which was going to be mentioned in a future book? Or, was it created by the writers, who then got approval from Martin? (in which case, this doesn’t reflect the books).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Myrcella and Tommen

Was it a conscious choice to barely feature Myrcella and Tomment in the TV series? They don't appear prominently at this point in the books either, but the TV show has been willing to expand other characters (Margaery Tyrell, Shireen Baratheon). If so I thought this made a lot of sense, as it implies how little they factor into the internal family dynamic, and Cersei treats them as objects (the ultimate proof of Cersei's hypocrisy that she's a "devoted mother" is that she hardly ever interacts with her younger children, she's obsessed with Joffrey). I mean, between the two of them, Myrcella and Tommen had a single line of dialogue in Season 1 ("is Bran going to die?") - surpassed by even Rickon Stark. Thus it was startling when they had actual dialogue of any kind in "What is Dead May Never Die" - Myrcella of course leaves for Dorne right after that and wasn't seen for the rest of Seasons 2 or 3 ("off in Dorne getting a suntan" as Aimee Richardson tweeted). Even so, Tommen didn't appear in Season 3 at all.

So the question is, 1 - was this a conscious choice to sideline them, to emphasize how much of a non-factor they are in Cersei's life? We never even see Cersei discuss with her own daughter the arranged marriage she's just been forced into.

2 - Is it difficult to fight the urge to give them more screentime? And when you do have to write for them, is it frustrating that there is no "group dynamic" because they've barely interacted with everyone else before, and are functionally new characters?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:22, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

Lordsport and "Red Harbor"

In Season 2, Yara teases Theon at Pyke that he was only given one ship, docked in Lordsport, by saying that she’s commanding so many ships that they couldn’t fit there and had to dock at the larger port of “Red Harbor” – Lordsport is the largest port on Pyke in the books, and there’s never been mention of a “Red Harbor” – so is there now officially a new primary port for Pyke island, or was Yara just teasing him?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Tournament reward prize in "Lord Snow"

During the Small Council scene in "Lord Snow", Renly hands Ned Stark a scroll containing the announcement of the tournament and the prizes for the winners, which he then reads off as "40,000 Gold Dragons for the champion, 20,000 for the runner-up, and 20,000 for the best archer". Pycelle then asks if the crown can afford 80,000 Gold Dragons in prize money. If you pause when Ned first unrolls the scroll, its contents are actually clearly legible: it goes on to say that there is a 20,000 Gold Dragon prize for "Combat with Swords and Clubs", which makes for a total tournament debt of 100,000 Gold Dragons.

How are we to account for this discrepancy? It's important because relative prices mentioned in the TV show or books are how we try to figure out how much the Gold Dragon coin is actually worth.

Was the prize 80,000 Gold Dragons, as stated in dialogue, or 100,000 Gold Dragons, as listed on the prop? I don't know if scripts and aired dialogue officially supersede statements visible on props.

Though of course, GRRM has said elsewhere that the prize money at the Tourney of the Hand was quite extravagant by Tournament standards, because Robert spends money like a drunkard Robert drunkenly spends money without forethought, and thus is not a good indicator of how much prize money a "normal" Tournament would give.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:50, July 27, 2013 (UTC)

Targaryen heraldry

We've seen some promotional images of Targaryen heraldry featuring a dragon with four legs and two wings - but dragons don't have six limbs, they have four limbs. They have two wings in front and two legs in back, like a bat. Are these earlier images non-canonical? Or, was it done intentionally to reflect that people haven't seen a live dragon in a century and a half and are starting to forget details about what they really looked like?

Because the problem is that upon closer inspection, I realized that the large Targaryen sigil that Viserys wears on his tunic (desperately insisting "I'm a Targaryen!" as if that will prove anything) actually features a dragon with four legs and two wings. Dragons don't look like this. Was the design on Viserys' tunic a simple error? Or, was it a subtle hint that Viserys is so out-of-touch with real power that he doesn't even know what dragons actually looked like?

Or, if these were in fact simple mistakes, would you happily appropriate the theory that "this reflects their lack of knowledge about dragons because they've never seen a live one" as a retcon? --The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:37, August 6, 2013 (UTC)

Rakharo and Kovarro

How were Rakharo and Kovarro developed for the TV show? They do seem based on Jhago and Rakharo from the books, but their roles were reversed (book-Rakharo is older and good with a sword, Jhago with a whip). We assumed that Jhago was simply renamed “Kovarro” because it sounded to similar to Khal Jhaqo, one of Drogo’s kos who splits off and forms his own khalsar, becoming a major enemy to Daenerys.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Barristan and the Small Council

Why wasn’t Barristan Selmy shown as a member of the Small Council in the TV series? The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard has a seat on the council in the books. Was this simply due to constraints of time and budget in bringing the actor there (or because it would have complicated the drama of Ned and Robert’s council scenes)? Is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard still an official member of the Small Council in the books? (and thus it can be said that “Selmy sat on Robert’s Small Council?")--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I see what you did there. "Kissed by Fire" lampshades this by having dialogue between Barristan and Jorah, directly pointing out that the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard does sit on the Small Council. Barristan explains that Robert didn't like having him give strategic advice because he used to serve the Targaryens (but he is okay with him guarding the king himself?...well, Barristan might not have been relied on for when they were making plans to assassinate Viserys and Daenerys, as he objected in the books) -- though Barristan says he didn't mind because he hates politics. The explanation fits well enough for me.

The question now is, at what point was this planned out? I have the lingering suspicion that even before Season 1 was filming, when the writers were breaking down the basic story arcs season by season, it was decided to do away with the "Arstan Whitebeard" reveal - which really wouldn't have worked well in a visual medium (sort of like Merry actually recognizing Eowyn through her disguise in the movie version of Return of the King). So you had to have some reason that Barristan wouldn't be present at the Small Council meetings where he would learn that Jorah was spying for Varys. So was this fix thought up in Season 3, or planned from early on? (the writers intentionally left Barristan out of Season 1 Small Council scenes because they consciously knew it wouldn't fit well into Season 3, as the plan was to reveal Barristan's identity immediately.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:19, April 29, 2013 (UTC)

Davos as Hand of the King

During the episode "Blackwater", Stannis says he intends to name Davos as his Hand after they win the battle, but they lose the battle, Davos is lost at sea, and when he returns he quarrels with Melisandre and is thrown in the dungeon. Thus there was never a point when he could have actively assumed the office.

However, in the Season 3 finale "Mhysa", after Davos is released from the dungeon he starts reading through letters the castle has received (despite his difficulty from only recently learning how to read), and tells Shireen that he has to do this drudgery now that he is her father's Hand "again" - which doesn't match the previous order of events in the TV series, in which Stannis intended to name Davos his Hand but never had the chance before.

I realize this is partially due to omitting the Alester Florent subplot for time reasons.

Still, how can Davos say to Shirren that he is Davos' Hand "again" when in the TV continuity, he wasn't stated to he "Hand" before the Battle of the Blackwater?

Is this simply an error, so we should just chalk it up to "Davos was speaking loosely"?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:50, August 10, 2013 (UTC)

Tarly at Summerhall

When Robert is discussing the Battle of Summerhall with Barristan Selmy, he says that his first kill was a boy from House Tarly in the battle. Some have interpreted this as that there were “elements of House Tarly” in the battle, even though Tarly and other Reach houses only arrived for the later Battle of Ashford; in which case, this could have just been one random Tarly member who happened to be in the area at the time, not a “force” of House Tarly?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Indeed I believe we should treat it as such. Its possible the writers messed up but Summerhall and Ashford have been correctly introduced in TV continuity in the bluray extras.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:18, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Lord Redwyne

We’ve been debating this: when Varys and Littlefinger are sparing, Varys makes an off-hand comment about “Lord Redwyne prefers his boys especially young” – was this referring to Lord Paxter Redwyne, head of House Redwyne, or just some minor cousin? (seeing as Paxter doesn’t live in King’s Landing to even use Littlefinger’s brothels). There’s been no indication in the books that Paxter is a homosexual or a pedophile. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

They refer to him as Lord, not as Ser. Yes, in the books Lord Paxter arrives to KL with the Tyrell host, but that doesn't mean that he couldn't have been around the capital by Season 1 in TV!Universe.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:17, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

They use "lord" lowercase to refer to all nobles - including Tyrion, even if he's not the "Lord" capital L of anything.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:01, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

Updated Pronuciation Guide?

Is there an on-set official pronunciation guide for later seasons, as there was for Season 1? We’re really interested in seeing those, they help immensely.

Which is correct? The official pronunciation guide from Season 1 says "Tih-rul" (rhymes with "squirrel") but later seasons shifted to "Tie-rell" like in Blade Runner. Particularly, during Season 3 characters would pronounce "Tyrell" two separate ways within the same conversation, i.e. Cersei and Tywin saying "Tie-rell" and "Tih-rul" at each other. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Old Nan

Just to confirm this: due to the death of the actress before Season 1 even premiered (but after all of her scenes were finished), it has been functionally implied that Old Nan just died “off screen” in the break between Seasons 1 and 2, due to old age? It hasn’t been acknowledged in dialogue so far.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Lorath and Shae

It's been explained that Shae was changed in Season 1 to be "from the Free Cities" to explain the actress’ accent. But in Season 2, Shae was stated to be from Lorath. Why was specifically Lorath selected? As of the fifth book, A Dance with Dragons, descriptions of Lorath's culture and society are scant to nonexistent, nor have any named characters appeared who come from Lorath. We know nothing about it, it is the least-developed of the Free Cities (in that it is utterly not developed in the story at all). Great line in the Complete Guide with Jorah not being able to remember anything noteworthy about Lorath: has Martin mentioned anything? If Lorath is so boring, why was it decided upon as Shae’s origin? In short...what in hell goes on in Lorath?!--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

We would need official confirmation, but I remember the speculation being that since both Jaqen H'ghar and Shae are played by German actors and Jaqen being from Lorath is prominently mentioned in the books (although that might not be his true origin), the decision was made to make Lorath the place in the world where people had German accents (a bit like how people from the North have Sheffield/Yorkshire accents) and thus Shae is from there as well.--Werthead (talk) 12:15, April 1, 2013 (UTC)

Well...if you check the History tab on the "Lorath" article, that's because I'm the one that started that speculation that German accents come from Lorath...--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:53, April 1, 2013 (UTC)

Book-Shae vs TV-Shae

Why in the show is Shae portrayed as actually caring for Sansa and, in a bigger change, even shown as genuinely loving Tyrion? In the books, Tyrion consciously admits to himself that he knows Shae doesn't really love him, he's just so forlorn and desperate to hold onto the self-delusion that he is loved that he's basically playing house with Shae, even though he knows he doesn't really return her love. For that matter, Shae in the books simply didn't care that he was marrying Sansa, and this was yet another reason Tyrion had to realize that she really didn't love him, just his money. The point is sort of that Tyrion feels so unloved for being a dwarf, both by his family and society, that he's willing to just play along at loving Shae to feel better (the only women he thought ever loved him was Tysha. Why was this decision made? Won't it have an impact on Shae's later actions in the books, which won't make as much sense in this context? -- DRAEVAN13 21:57, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

Sansa and Septa Mordane

Why the heck is Sansa acting so out of character and bitter towards Septa Mordane in “A Golden Crown”? This wasn’t in the books. The functional assumption was that just as Sansa is copying Cersei’s hairstyle, she’s impressionable and imitating how Cersei is mean to her servants. I take issue with Jane Espenson's ability to write characters on this show, and I'm glad she only got to work on it for one episode. "Oh look at me, I'm a female writer!" -- so is Vanessa Taylor, the difference is that Taylor didn't work on Buffy and Firefly so she doesn't have a permanent open chair at Hall H of San Diego Comic-Con.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Asha Greyjoy

At what point was it realized that “Asha Greyjoy” sounds like “Osha the wildling”? Asha Greyjoy is a far more important character, even a POV narrator in later books. Surely, shouldn’t the secondary wildling character have been renamed instead?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Osha appears first.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:19, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

...Darn you.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:54, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

Elmarr vs Waldron Frey

In the books, Arya was proxy-arranged to marry Elmarr Frey as part of the deal to get House Frey’s support, but in the TV series, the name was changed to “Waldron Frey” – why was this?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Frey girls in "The Rains of Castamere"

When Robb Stark arrives at the Twins in "The Rains of Castamere" for his uncle Edmure Tully to enter into a marriage-alliance with House Frey, Lord Walder Frey insists that he apologize to his many gathered daughters and grand-daughters, who might have married Robb if he hadn't broken his promised marriage-alliance to House Frey. Some of the Frey girls in this scene have names (presented in on-screen dialogue) which do not match any of the numerous minor Frey daughters and grand-daughters from the books: Arwaya Frey, Derwa Frey, Waldra Frey, Janeya Frey, Neyela Frey, and Freya Frey. A "Walda Frey" is also presented in this scene as Lord Walder's daughter: many of his children try to curry favor with him by naming their own children "Walder" or "Walda" (which he finds annoying), thus Lord Walder has numerous granddaughters named "Walda", but no daughter named "Walda".

Meanwhile, the other Frey girls in this scene actually do use names from the books, and generally match their descriptions: Serra Frey, Sarra Frey, Marianne Frey, Merry Frey, and Shirei Frey.

Ultimately, even in the books these girls are all minor characters of whom little is known other than the name, genealogy, and sometimes a general physical description. Functionally it makes little difference that "Shirei Frey" used the same name as the books, instead of an invented name such as "Arwaya", but still...why did the TV series invent new names instead of just using established ones from the books? This makes our Frey Family Tree even more of a jumbled mess.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:01, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

Cleos Frey

Why was the decision made to make “Cleos Frey” into “Alton Lannister”? We assumed it was because you didn’t want to confuse the TV-first audience about whose side he was on, by explaining that while House Frey officially declared for Robb when the war broke out, that a few Frey relatives sided with the Lannisters? (as Cleos’ mother is actually Tywin’s sister, making him half-Lannister too). Is this how the decision was made?

Is "Alton Lannister" related to the Freys in any way? He later stated that he is not Jaime's first cousin, as his mother "Cynda Lannister" was a woman Jaime didn't remember well at all (while his aunt Genna is well known to him). So if Alton is indeed a minor Lannister cousin, did he branch off in any specific way? I.e. the son of Stafford Lannister's younger brother or something? We need to know how to put him in our family tree diagrams. Or, is he officially such a minor cousin, fifth or sixth degree cousin, that he wouldn't remotely appear on a family tree? --The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

While I'm on the subject, is Reginald Lannister (a TV-only character) indeed a member of the formal cadet branch "House Lannister of Lannisport", or is he just a distant minor cousin of a younger branch of "House Lannister of Casterly Rock"?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:41, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Kinslaying

How many degrees of relationship must two people be within for murder to be considered "Kinslaying"? There are actual rules for how many degrees of relationship constitute Incest in real-life: the Fourth Lateran Council defined it as a couple who were third cousins or closer.

Similarly, Rickard Karstark accuses Robb Stark of kinslaying, despite the fact that the Karstarks branched off from the Starks a thousand years ago. Is such a distant relationship still held to be "Kinslaying"? Using the analogue of rules against incest, how many "degrees of relationship" count as Kingslaying?

Now the TV series changed this around a bit, by having Jaime Lannister kill "Alton Lannister" - and while Cleos Frey (Alton's book analogue) was Jaime's first cousin, Alton is directly stated to be such a distant minor cousin that Jaime has difficulty even remembering him.

Jaime was a lot of things in the books but never a kinslayer, yet the TV series has him kill his minor cousin in an escape attempt; this is quite a big change. However, is "Alton Lannister" such a distant relation, fifth or sixth degree cousin, that it is well beyond the degrees of relationship that constitute "Kinslaying"?

While I'm on the subject, did Alton agree to let Jaime kill him? Because he mostly took him by surprise, but the possibility dawned on me that Alton just said that he'd do anything to help the famous Jaime escape, and when Jaime says he can help him escape but Alton will die in the attempt, I almost suspected the Alton nodded in agreement, and was totally willing to do this -- albeit he thought it would be with a sword in hand charging their way out, as opposed to "kill you to distract the guard".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:25, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

A related question: is it considered "kinslaying" to kill relatives-by-marriage? They've usually spoken of it as "spilling your own blood" in the books, most examples given are of blood relatives. This is relevant because when Edmure Tully married Roslin Frey, that was a real legal marriage in the eyes of gods and men. Thus, for the brief hours during the feast at the Red Wedding, Edmure became Walder Frey's son-in-law: thus tying him to Catelyn as the sister of his son-in-law, and making Robb Stark his great-nephew-in-law. Thus was Robb Stark's betrayal at the Red Wedding also seen as kinslaying in a sense? I know that guest right is an even bigger taboo as kinslaying, but characters do remark on how the Red Wedding was just an unimaginable crime, breaking guest right not just any ordinary day but *during a wedding between the victims' family and Walder's own daughter*, which he was hosting.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:42, September 21, 2013 (UTC)

Martyn Lannister vs Tion Frey

In the books, Rickard Karstark kills Willem Lannister and Tion Frey, Cleos' younger brother. Similar to changing "Cleos Frey" to "Alton Lannister", I suspect the TV series changed this to have him kill Willem's brother Martyn Lannister to simplify the situation, and not have viewers wonder why they'd kill Freys (when the Freys are on the Starks' side at that point). In the books, Martyn was just returned in a prisoner exchange and is alive and well. Is this, indeed, why Martyn was killed instead of Tion Frey? To simplify the situation instead of having to introduce the Genna-Emmon Frey branch of the family?

It's a shame we haven't seen Kevan Lannister in Season 3, given that in contrast to Tywin, he actually cares about his children. His eldest son Lancel is at death's door with severe fever from a badly infected wound; now the TV series has killed not one, but both of his younger sons. He's the good and loyal Lannister brother, and this is how the TV series rewards him? For two and twenty sons he never wept, because they died in honor's lofty bed; but for these, noble sers, in the dust he writes, his heart's deep languor and his soul's sad tears.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:12, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

Mutiny at Craster's Keep

In the Mutiny at Craster's Keep, the character who kills Craster is named Dirk in the books, not Karl, though "Clubfoot Karl" is one of his accomplices. The two characters were apparently just condensed into "Karl" in the TV series. Why was the name changed from Karl to "Dirk"? This isn't really an important change, but it is curious.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:44, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Gendry in Season 3, and Robert's other bastards

Gendry's storyline got condensed with Edric Storm's in Season 3 (I feel this actually worked out fairly well and saved a great deal of time, better to use an established character than one out of the blue). Gendry was even brought before Stannis who admitted that Gendry was Robert's bastard (as Gendry so closely resembles Robert that it is blatantly obvious to anyone who knew Robert that he is Robert's son). Does Stannis' meeting with Gendry mean that Gendry has been "acknowledged" and now has the right to use a bastard surname? In which case, would he use "Storm" for the Stormlands are "Waters" for the Crownlands? Or, more probably, is it that Stannis admitted that he was Robert's bastard, but he didn't formally "Acknowledge" him (capital A) in a legal sense?

While we're on the subject, do Edric Storm and Mya Stone, the only other absolutely confirmed surviving bastards of Robert, exist in the TV version or have they been officially removed? In which case, is Gendry officially the only bastard of Robert still alive in the TV continuity? Or are they sort of in a "limbo state" such as Shireen was during Season 2, in that you'd like to fit in Edric or Mya done the line but don't know right now if you'll be able to?

Also, Mhaegen, the mother of Barra, was killed in the books trying to defend her daughter; she wasn't explicitly shown to die in the TV series. Is Mhaegen dead in the TV continuity? Also, was Barra named for "Baratheon"?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:49, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

Davos Seaworth's sons

In the books, Davos Seaworth has seven sons: Dale, Allard, Matthos, Marc, Devan, Stannis, and Steffon, the eldest four of whom die in the Battle of the Blackwater. Matthos was one of these, but the TV series condensed all four into just Matthos (less names to keep track of, more screentime to develop one as a character instead of four names in a list). The youngest two stay home with his wife. Devan, however, serves Stannis as a squire and should logically be part of the Dragonstone/Stannis character set. Did the TV series officially change it so that Matthos is the only son of Davos? This would emotionally devastate him even more, but also prevent the show from using his younger sons i.e. Devan as characters in later seasons.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:48, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Locke/Brave Companions

I assume that the Brave Companions and Vargo Hoat were condensed in the TV version to a troupe of vicious Bolton soldiers led by "Locke" because the TV-first viewers might have gotten confused with the switching back and forth between sides that the Brave Companions do (that, and they hadn't been set up in Season 2). Still, fundamentally, why was the decision made to make them Bolton soldiers instead of a mercenary company? One of the reasons the Brave Companions are interesting is their outlandish diversity (Ibbenese, Dothraki, Dornish, various Free Cities) - as there also a creativity constraint? That is, you didn't want to limit yourselves all at once by making major decisions like "this is what Dornishmen dress like" or "this is what Ibbenese costumes look like"?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:44, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Giants in the TV series

Why were the Giants in the TV series changed from the Bigfoot/Yeti-like hominids of the books? In the books, they're almost ape-like, wear no clothes but have Wookie-esque pelts of fur, and their proportions are different. The TV series just has stuntman Ian Whyte as a basically human figure, with camera special effects to resize his image and make him look proportionately bigger (much as was done with the direwolves; footage of real wolves was taken but then resized and digitally inserted back into the shot). Also, Michelle Clapton had some good idea about how their costumes were different (upon closer inspection, they don't actually wear "clothes" so much as swaddle themselves in strips of fabric. I would assume that this was because most of the CGI budget went to the Dragons and then to the direwolves, and the giants were a low priority behind those. Recognizing the rational limits of a TV budget, I actually support this decision: there were real fears that the giants would be cut entirely from the TV continuity because there wasn't enough budget left over for them after the dragons and direwolves -- thus I was delighted to see they found their way into the TV series in any capacity. The actual shot in the Season 3 premiere was quite well done and even awe-inspring the way its shot, sharing Jon's surprise, even though I know intellectually it's just a digitally resized image. Anyway, the question is, how was the decision to include the giants into the TV series made? Ultimately, why were they changed to be less Bigfoot-like? Were there arguments about budget limitations? Was there ever a time when it was felt they couldn't be introduced onto the show? Also, I gots to have Giants riding Mammoths in the Season 4 finale.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:53, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

Rickard Karstark's sons

Lord Rickard has three sons in the books: Harrion, Torrhen, and Eddard, as well as a daughter named Alys. When Jaime realizes that his army is lost during the Battle of the Whispering Wood, he makes a final push to single-handedly carve his way through the Northern army in an attempt to kill Robb Stark in single combat. Jaime manages to reach Robb's personal bodyguard and kill several of them, including Eddard and Torrhen, before being knocked unconscious.

Now the TV series had Jaime kill Torrhen Karstark during an escape attempt in Season 2, which is well and good: Jaime kills men during failed escape attempts in the books, and the TV-first viewers probably wouldn't remember an off-hand mention in the Season 1 finale that Jaime killed Karstark's sons (given that the battle was off-screen and the Karstarks not really introduced yet). So this puts it closer to when Jaime is freed and has more time to establish that this pisses off Rickard Karstark, good.

It is also later retroactively established that Karstark lost another son in battle, when Robb remarks in "Kissed by Fire" that he saw him die beside him in combat (not explicitly said to be Whispering Wood, but we assume). However, Robb says that he saw Harrion Karstark die - not "Eddard Karstark" the youngest son.

In the past, the TV show has changed the names of minor characters if they overlap with major characters, to avoid confusion - i.e. Robert Arryn became "Robyn Arryn" (either way he's known as "Sweetrobin"). Of course, one of GRRM's points in the books was that it is implausible that "Robert Baratheon" was the only guy in an entire continent named "Robert", so he made it a point to have some minor characters re-use names, i.e. "Eddard Karstark". For that matter, particularly among the noble families, people tend to get named after relatives or allies, this Robert Baratheon -->Robert Arryn, Robb Stark, Jon Arryn -->Jon Snow. But on the other hand I myself am shocked at how easily the TV-first viewers get confused at basic things like this, so it was probably a good move to change the names around.

The problem is that after the death of his father Rickard, Harrion Karstark becomes the head of House Karstark, and this is a major plot point in the rest of the story. Harrion was the eldest son anyway, and his two younger brothers Torrhen and Eddard died.

But what Season 3 did was to say that "Torrhen" and "Harrion" died, albeit without saying what the birth order was between them. Thus, within the TV-continuity, did "eldest son Harrion" and "middle son Torrhen" die, leaving youngest son Eddard Karstark as the new head of the House? The simpler answer would to have just renamed Eddard himself, as "Philip Karstark" or something. Or, were Harrion and Torrhen Rickard's younger sons, in which case there is an as-yet unnamed older son (who probably won't be named Eddard) in the TV continuity?

We need to know this to get our House Karstark family tree properly organized.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:16, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Karstark troop numbers in Season 3, reaction to losing Frey alliance

In "Kissed by Fire", when the Karstark contingent leaves after Robb executes Lord Rickard Karstark, both Robb and Tywin Lanister remark that "half of his army" has abandoned him.

This is implausible. It's stating that the Karstarks literally make up half of the entire Northern army? They are a prominent Northern noble House with an above-average army, but they are still only one of a little over a dozen major noble Houses from the North. And that's not even counting the fact that the Riverlords swelled Robb's ranks after he liberated Riverrun.

Were they just...exaggerating?

Moreover, what seems very odd is that in the books, the loss of the alliance with House Frey is treated as a much greater disaster; they lost four thousand soldiers (twice as many as the Karstarks) and moreover, lose their land route back to the North.

In the TV series...no one gets particularly upset once Robb marries Talisa/Jeyne. Indeed, I thought it would be a big bombshell revelation which makes all of his subordinates at best grumble, and at worst openly complain. In the books, when Jaime first hears at Harrenhal that Robb broke his alliance to House Frey, he openly says - and with genuine sympathy - that the fool Robb has won the war on the battlefield but ultimately lost it in the marriage bed.

Instead, in early Season 3....Talisa is openly referred to as "Queen" by Roose Bolton and everyone including Rickard Karstark knows they've married. There was no moment of revelation. On top of this, the loss of the Frey alliance and all of their troops is treated as a minor background event which doesn't particularly concern anyone, when really it was a disaster on the scale of losing the support of the Karstarks. Now it was just relegated to a not-too-worrisome background event.

In short, it's as if the TV series combined the reaction to losing the Freys and Karstarks into just one big reaction to losing the Karstarks....downplaying how simply stupid Robb's decision to throw away the Frey alliance was. Why?

It seems that because there was little reaction to losing the Freys, the backlash against Robb's stupid political decisions was entirely focused on the Karstarks....to the point that the actual number of soldiers he lost when the Karstarks left had to be exaggerated.

Moreover, this leads to the "Butterfly effect" of change one thing, change everything. If "Half" of Robb's army went home....then "half" of the *entire* Northern army wasn't destroyed at the Twins during the Red Wedding. One of the key reasons the Red Wedding is so important is because the Northerners' standing armies are crushed, to the point that they cannot possibly resist Bolton rule. If the Karstarks have "half" the army, why would they feel compelled to obey the Boltons?

Or did "half" refer to other Houses that left with the Karstarks in joined protest?

Or, were they just exaggerating?

Or, hopefully, was Robb only referring to the garrison *immediately present with him at Riverrun* - he had six thousand men, losing two thousand from the Karstarks might be exaggerated slightly as "half", but within the bounds of "speaking loosely". --The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:27, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Rylene Florent

In "Mhysa", Davos describes Rylene Florent as Shireen's "cousin", when she is in fact her great-aunt (Rylene is the paternal aunt of Selyse). Was this just an error, and she is still her great-aunt in the TV version?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:37, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Isn't "cousin" a catch-all term to cousins of someone's parents or grandparents' cousins?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 20:01, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, but Rylene isn't the cousin of Shireen's parent Selyse; she is Selyse's paternal aunt. "Kinsman" would be a catch-all term, "cousin" means something specific.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:59, July 28, 2013 (UTC)

Melisandre's slave brand

This dawned on me; we've seen...quite a bit of Melisandre, and she explicitly states she was branded as a slave. We have seen no evidence of a slave brand; where could she possibly have been branded? Or what about slave tattoos, etc.?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:27, August 10, 2013 (UTC)

Wargs

People who are able to enter into and control the minds of animals are called "Wargs" in the TV series. In the books, properly speaking, they are called "Skinchangers" - a "Warg" is a specific kind of Skinchanger who focuses on wolves (though really, not much limits a warg to just wolves other than that they have a lot of practice at it). I.e. Orell is called a "Warg" even when he is skinchanging into an Eagle, not a wolf. Thus, are you saying that officially in the TV continuity, the term "skinchanger" does not exist, and they are universally known as "wargs"?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:59, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Jaqen, the "Red God", and the God of Death

In "The Ghost of Harrenhal", Jaqen H'ghar says to Arya that "You stole three deaths from the Red God. We have to give them back." The "Red God" is another name for R'hllor, the Lord of Light - but Jaqen, as one of the Faceless Men of Braavos, worships the God of Death, not the Lord of Light.

This has actually resulted in considerable debate here on the wiki. Shouldn't Jaqen have been referring to the God of Death? Is that what he meant? Or, and this gets tricky...the "God of Death" worshiped by the Faceless Men is a syncretic religion, they think every religion has an aspect of the "Many-Faced God of Death". For example, "the Stranger" of the Faith of the Seven, who represents death in that religion, is claimed by the Faceless Men to be just another avatar/face of the one, true, many-faced God of Death. Keeping this in mind, was Jaqen just speaking loosely when he said "Red God" because he meant God of Death?

Because, due to this debate, we can't actually use anything about Jaqen on the God of Death article, even though he's the only Faceless Man introduced in the first three seasons. We are unfortunately restricted by this technicality into assuming he was talking about the "Lord of Light" when he said "Red God" instead of "God of Death". This has become a serious problem.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:11, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

The Iron Throne's debts

In "Walk of Punishment" Tyrion says that the crown owes his father Tywin "millions" and the Iron Bank of Braavos "tens of millions". Yet two seasons earlier in "Lord Snow", Littlefinger clearly stated that the crown is six million in debt, half of this to Tywin (the In-Episode Guide on HBO Go even has a clip of "Lord Snow" play when Tyrion says this). Now they did owe Tywin "millions", as three million is "millions". However, they can't plausibly owe the Iron Bank of Braavos "tens of millions" when the crown's debt does not actually exceed six million (and we know from the books that the breakdown is basically three million to the Lannisters, two million to the Iron Bank of Braavos, and one million to the Faith of the Seven). Even ignoring the books entirely, Tyrion's line in "Walk of Punishment" about "tens of millions" contradicts on-screen information in "Lord Snow". Is Tyrion's line a dialogue/script error?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:22, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Thoros of Myr and the High Priest of R'hllor

In Thoros and Melisandre's exchange in High Valyrian in "The Climb", she says the "High Priest" sent him to convert King Robert, and Thoros bluntly says he failed. In the books, Thoros was actually sent to convert King Aerys Targaryen, as they thought they might have some luck due to his obsession with fire, but it didn't work. Thoros then hung around King Robert's court, this is true, but he had even less luck. It doesn't make sense that the fire-god religion would have any reason to think the drunken hedonist King Robert would be appealed to by their beliefs, while the Mad King was obsessed with fire. Is this a dialogue/script error or was a conscious choice made to send Thoros later, after Aerys died? Then again, even on-screen, he says he was present in King's Landing when it got sacked and saw the butchered corpses of the Targaryen children.

Meanwhile (and this is asked again in the book-specific questions) does the Lord of Light religion actually have a single "High Priest" governing the entire religion? Or, did Melisandre simply mean that the "High Priest of R'hllor" from Myr is the one who sent Thoros on his mission? Because right now we think you meant the High Priest of R'hllor governs the whole religion in the TV continuity. Or, on the other hand, did you mean he's the High Priest in Myr, just as Bennero is the High Priest in Volantis?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:27, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Kings and Crowns

In the TV series, of the rival kings who declare themselves in the War of the Five Kings, only Joffrey and Renly are seen wearing crowns. In the books, each of them actually had their own crowns:

Stannis has a new crown made resembling a circle of metal flames around his head, in honor of the Lord of Light, while Balon wears a traditional crown made out of driftwood which the Kings of the Iron Islands used to wear in past centuries. The old Kings in the North used to wear a crown consisting of a simple circlet of bronze, engraved with the Old Tongue runes of the First Men, surmounted by nine black spikes shaped like longswords. The crown was intentionally simple and only made of the basic metals of war, not containing gold or precious gemstones, to emphasize the grave nature of the Kings in the North, in contrast with the flamboyant heraldic excesses of the Andal kingdoms to the south. The crown was taken away when the Starks bent the knee during the Targaryen Conquest three centuries ago, but when Robb is declared the new King in the North the smiths at Riverrun create a very accurate replica which he wears.

In the books, when Robb Stark's corpse was mutilated by cutting off his head and sewing his direwolf Grey Wind's head in its place, the final act of desecration was when the Freys (possibly Lord Walder himself) proceeded to nail Robb's crown onto Grey Wind's head - further reinforcing the utter body horror of the moment. Robb's desecrated corpse with the crudely "crowned" direwolf head sown onto it remains one of the most iconic images of the novels.

Curiously...the TV series hasn't shown Robb, Stannis, or Balon wearing crowns. The only kings shown with crowns are Joffrey and Renly (and, of course, Viserys). Maybe Stannis hasn't because he doesn't really stand on ceremony, maybe Balon just didn't have enough screentime. Robb, however, his crown was a very important symbol...and seeing it nailed to his direwolf's head just reinforces how much they desecrated his corpse. That, and the insult that afterwards, Ryman Frey drunkenly crowns a prostitute "Queen of the Whores" and has her wear it while he has sex with her, adding more insult.

Why, in contrast, didn't the rival kings wear crowns in the TV series?

For that matter, even Daenerys Targaryen has her own crown at this point, a triple-headed dragon crown gifted by a merchant guild at Qarth trying to curry favor (she didn't accept their offer but she kept the crown anyway). Will Daenerys get her crown soon?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:06, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Tywin's letters

Tywin is shown writing letters in his major scene with Tyrion in "Valar Dohaeris", and his major scene with Cersei in "And Now His Watch is Ended" - was the implication supposed to be, retroactively, that these were indeed correspondence between Tywin, Roose Bolton, and Walder Frey about the Red Wedding? That is, that Tywin is multi-tasking, and even as he is upbraiding Tyrion and Cersei, while having this conversation, he is writing a letter planning the betrayal and destruction of the Starks? The books implied it a bit more strongly; I'm not sure if this was the TV series' intent, though some scenes may have been deleted.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:01, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Queenscrown

Is the ruined windmill/settlement that Bran & Co. take shelter in during "The Rains of Castamere" - and where Jon turns on the wildlings - supposed to be Queenscrown? Because if it is, we can put it in an article about "Queenscrown", otherwise it's just a nameless ruin that doesn't get its own article. Because Queenscrown actually appears on the official HBO Viewer's Guide map, but did not receive a "Locations by episode" pinpoint entry in the guide when these episodes aired.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:03, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Viserys previously described the dragon skulls kept in the throne room when he was having sex with Doreah in "Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things" - except in that episode, Viserys said that the dragon skulls were arranged so that they got progressively bigger as they got closer to the Iron Throne, while in this episode, Tywin says that the smallest skulls were near the Iron Throne and the largest were on the far side of the room. Viserys (and the books) said that the skull of the smallest one wasn't much bigger than that of a dog's skull, but Tywin says the smallest was the size of an apple. Tywin was probably exaggerating. Joffrey points out that the biggest skull was the size of a carriage, presumably the same one Arya previously saw when she wandered into the Red Keep's dungeons in "The Wolf and the Lion"; the largest dragons were said to be easily capable of swallowing a horse whole.

Dragon skulls

In "Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things", Viserys described the dragon skulls kept in the throne room when he was having sex with Doreah, and he said that the dragon skulls were arranged so that they got progressively bigger as they got closer to the Iron Throne -- but in "The Bear and the Maiden Fair", Tywin says to Joffrey (while in the throneroom itself) that the smallest skulls were near the Iron Throne, and got progressively larger as they went away from the throne. Both Viserys and Tywin would have seen these skulls first-hand during the reign of the Mad King, so this isn't just a mistake of second-hand reporting. Bryan Cogman wrote "Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things", but George R.R. Martin himself wrote "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" - does Martin's description supersede Cogman's? Why would the Targaryens want the smallest, least impressive skulls closest to the Iron Throne?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:29, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Catelyn and Eddard bedding

In "The Rains of Castamere", Catelyn tells Roose Bolton that Eddard Stark would not allow a bedding ceremony at their wedding. However, in the books, Catelyn and Eddard did indeed have a bedding ceremony - Lord William Dustin, former lord of House Dustin who died at the end of Robert's Rebellion, is specifically stated to have taken part in carrying Catelyn off to the marriage bed. Why was this changed?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:55, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Second Sons and wine

In the books, Daenerys tricks the mercenary companies around Yunkai by gifting them a wagon of wine, then attacking them that night while they are too drunk to fight, ruthlessly crushing her enemies. In the TV series, she *does* offer them a wagon of wine, but nothing is mentioned of it again - partially this is because the two companies were merged into one; in the books, Daario brought over the Stormcrows by killing the other captains, and it was the Second Sons that she gifted the wine. Even so, why did the line get included if this was cut anyway? Were there rewrites or deleted scenes? The actual way Yunkai falls seems more reminiscent of how Meereen falls, with a few champions sneaking their way in to unlock the slave pens and set off a major revolt to distract them. I was worried that this almost took away Daenerys "agency" from the fall of Yunkai - which in the books, was another example of her growing cunning and ruthlessness.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:34, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Renly's eyes

In the books, Renly's eyes are described as green...blue...bluish-green depending on the light he was standing in. In the TV series, his eyes are brown. Why?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:57, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Because of the actors' eyes. In the show the eye color is not part of the Baratheon genes plot.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 03:54, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

I was joking.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:40, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Lord Paramount of the Riverlands

In the books Petyr Baelish is made Lord of Harrenhal and Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, while House Frey gets Riverrun, but as vassals sworn to Harrenhal.

In the series Tyrion offered to make Littlefinger the new Lord Paramount of the Riverlands as well as Lord of Harrenhal. Joffrey grants Harrenhal to Baelish but makes no mention of who will rule the Trident. After the Red Wedding Walder Frey is made Lord of Riverrun. There is no mention of who is the Lord Paramount of the Trident. Littlefinger or Walder Frey?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:33, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

TV Frey family tree

Obviously we don't expect nearly thirty Frey family members to be in the TV series...off the top of my head only maybe six to eight are actually fleshed out characters in the storyline (Lothar, Hosteen, etc.) So we'd expect you to condense the Frey relationships (while mentioning in passing that Walder has dozens of children).

Even so, have you established an official TV-canon family tree for those Freys appearing in the TV series?

Specifically, Black Walder is now stated to be a bastard son of Walder, not a legitimate grandson. Also several of the Frey girls introduced in "The Rains of Castamere" have altered names different from those provided in the books; why was this change made?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:48, July 7, 2014 (UTC)

King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men

The title of the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms in the books is "King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men".

Since the beginning of the TV series, however, the shortened title "King of the Andals and the First Men" has been used. This started all the way back when Ned Stark beheaded Will the Night's Watch deserter, and said "in the name of Robert, First of his Name, King of the Andals and the First Men..." - and was used consistently through the first three TV seasons.

Our assumption was, given that Dorne hadn't been introduced, you thought it would be confusing to introduce "the Rhoynar" at this point. I speculated it might be reintroduced in Season 4 when Oberyn Martell showed up and Dorne was given a major introduction.

However, it was not. Even during Tommen's coronation in "First of His Name", when Obern Martell is standing in front of the throne among the gathered high nobles, the High Septon only pronounces him "King of the Andals and the First Men".

After this I thought on it and realized that maybe you just didn't want to introduce a retcon -- what, suddenly we're going to start saying "King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men" all the time, even though the title mysteriously wasn't given as this in any past season? So, fine. The explanation I came up with is that Dorne is, after all, special: the Targaryens didn't conquer it but it joined through marriage-alliance, which specifically allowed it to keep special titles, its ruling family getting to keep styling themselves as "Princes" instead of "Lords". So I theorized that, to avoid having to make a retcon with past seasons, the principle in the TV continuity would simply be that out of respect to the Martells, the Targaryens not only let them keep calling themselves "Princes", but stopped claiming to be "Kings of the Rhoynar" when Dorne married in during the reign of King Daeron II (we can always later establish that past kings like Aegon I or Daeron I the Young Dragon claimed the title "King of the Rhoynar", but that Daeron II the Good and onwards stopped doing this even though they were now actually ruling Dorne) - though Dorne is still included in the "Lord of the Seven Kingdoms" title.

But all of that works out; Dorne does get special titles and maybe it's just not included in the TV version, just as the Martells can call themselves "Princes". And I was all set on this explanation.

...only then in the Season 4 finale, Daenerys is introduced as "Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men"...the book version.

The TV series has now contradicted itself by giving both versions. Why would Daenerys use the full title, but Tommen did not use the full title during his CORONATION, in front of a Martell representing the rulers of Dorne, an occasion moreso than any other in which it would be expected to use the full list of titles?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:11, July 7, 2014 (UTC)

Female inheritance in Season 4

In Season 4's "Mockingbird", House Stokeworth and House Martell are mentioned. It is said that Falyse Stokeworth will inherit Castle Stokeworth when her father dies...even though in the books, the current ruler is her mother, Tanda Stokeworth.

Similarly, when Oberyn is in Tyrion's prison cell and relating to him the story of how he first met him when he was a baby, he says that he made his first trip outside of Dorne when his father took him and Elia to Casterly Rock...even though in the books it was Oberyn's mother, who was in fact the Ruling Princess of Dorne at the time. And indeed this was a plot point because the reason Oberyn's mother went to Casterly Rock is because she was a friend of Joanna Lannister from when they were both handmaidens to Queen Rhaella.

Dorne's gender-blind equal primogeniture is one of its defining traits. When I describe Dorne to people I succinctly say: "Dorne is a desert region in the south of the continent. They were never conquered by the Targaryens but joined later through marriage-alliance, so they were allowed to keep certain privileges and local laws, chief of which is equal primogeniture".

For that matter, the current ruler of House Blackmont (from Dorne) is Lady Larra Blackmont, but in the Season 4 premiere of the TV series, this was changed to a man, "Lord Blackmont".

Has the TV continuity officially omitted the detail that Dorne practices equal primogeniture and that many of its noble Houses are therefore ruled by women?

And if so...why was this changed?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:55, July 7, 2014 (UTC)

Tysha and wherever whores go

Why was Tyrion's first wife Tysha not mentioned at all when Tyrion killed Tywin? This was his main motivation for confronting him in the books. Yes, the TV series introduced her in Season 1 and mentioned at least once each following season that Tyrion was married before, leading us to think Tysha was being set up.

We timed this, and four full minutes were spent in "The Mountain and the Viper" discussing Orson Lannister killing beetles. I understood that this was a Kubrick reference and indeed enjoyed it...but 60 seconds could have been taken out of this for Tyrion to say, "Oh crud Jaime, even Shae turned on me, I've been tricked by a whore again. You remember the last time I fell in love with a whore, I ended up marrying her. You know, Tysha, the one you set me up with." and then for Jaime to look really nervous. Sixty seconds. The Faceless Men coin that Jaqen gave to Arya was only introduced in the Season 2 finale, and was only last mentioned back in the Season 3 finale. People remembered the coin.

You will be asked about Tysha at every convention panel. Why?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:00, July 7, 2014 (UTC)

General questions about the narrative’s “lore”, unchanged from the books

Grand Maester

Is the Grand Maester the “head” of the Order of Maesters? Or is the Conclave of Archmaesters the governing body, with no one leader? In which case, is the Grand Maester “just” the Maester assigned to the Red Keep and the king? But the Order of Maesters has been around for thousands of years, in which case, was there even a Grand Maester before the Targaryen Conquest? Our functional assumption was that the Grand Maester was the *nominal* head of the Order, but in practice, by his very nature he’s located in a separate city from Oldtown, so the actual power is with the conclave?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Surnames

Why is it that some of the smallfolk have surnames? Don't only noble Houses have surnames (their House name)? Why does innkeeper Masha Heddle have a surname? While we're on the subject, why does Brienne of Tarth style herself “of Tarth” instead of “Brienne Tarth”?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

The "present-day" Heddles may be poor descendants of a knight called Black Tom Heddle, who appears in Dunk & Egg--Gonzalo84 (talk) 23:10, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

Renly Baratheon, Cadet Branches and Mottos

Did Renly even bother forming a cadet branch of House Baratheon, or what? I would assume that claiming inheritance ahead of Stannis, breaking all the rules, he didn’t try to formally create a cadet branch.

When a cadet branch of a noble House is formed, does it keep the motto of the original? Particularly, does Stannis continue to use “Ours is the Fury”? He changed his sigil. However, later books show that he’s using the generic gold and black Baratheon banners as well. Is this a case of using his own “personal” sigil, instead of inventing a new one? Does Stannis think he’s inventing a new House the way the Karstarks separated from the Starks? Because at the same time, he says he’s the only remaining Baratheon (after Renly died).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Robert Baratheon's Small Council

What was the makeup of Robert Baratheon's Small Council during the earlier parts of his reign? Jon Arryn, Pyrcelle, Varys, and Barristan always held their positions from the beginning. But the Master of Coin, Master of Laws, and Master of Ships are another matter. Renly wasn't always Master of Laws because he was just a child when Robert overthrew the Targaryens; Littlefinger was appointed Master of Coin some seven years before Jon Arryn died. Logically, other people were in these posts before them. Will we ever get any information on who they were, or why they were later replaced?

Meanwhile, was Stannis always the Master of Ships? He's a strict disciplinarian - why didn't Robert make him Master of Laws? Or was he Master of Laws at first, and Robert later shoved him out of the job to make room for Renly? (Following the pattern that Stannis kept getting stuck with difficult positions he didn't like, such as holding Dragonstone instead of Storm's End, but there was the rationale that Robert needed a firm hand to rein in Dragonstone because it was the Targaryen ancestral holding).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:27, November 16, 2013 (UTC)

Why did King Robert pardon Varys?

Officially, why would Robert pardon a man as dangerous as Varys, much less keep the old Targaryen spymaster on as his new one? Pycelle, at least, was a Lannister agent and helped them take the capital. But we know Varys is a secret Targaryen loyalist (even the TV series shows this); was it just because Varys was incredibly good at his job? Or did he use blackmail or something?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Master of Laws and the City Watch

In both the books and TV series, at the Small Council Renly threatens Janos Slynt that he will be fired if he can’t do his job and maintain order in the city. Does this mean that the Commander of the Gold Cloaks is directly answerable to the Master of Laws? That is, the Master of Laws controls the Gold Cloaks (in his “branch of government”); or was Renly just more loosely threatening Janos, i.e. “we, the Small Council and the king, might decide to have you replaced” and this had nothing to do with the fact that Renly himself is Master of Laws?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Surviving Baratheon cousins

It is difficult to completely eradicate a major ruling family that’s been around for hundreds of years. Do the Baratheons have any cousins which might take up the claim if Stannis and Shireen die? It does not appear that Steffon (Robert’s father) had any distant relations).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Houses Bolling and Wensington may be cadet branches of either Baratheons or Durrandons. Bollings maybe were founded by a bastard.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:21, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Due to their similar heraldry?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:42, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

Exactly.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:21, November 16, 2013 (UTC)

Are the Greyjoys "Lords Paramount"?

Is the head of House Greyjoy a “Lord Paramount” like other Great Houses in the realm? They style themselves “Lord Reaper of Pyke” (and other grandiose titles). Dorne is officially slightly different from the other kingdoms in that they’re not “Lords Paramount” but retain the title of Prince, which has some minor differences such as equal primogeniture. A king can dismiss a Lord Paramount at will, but can they dismiss a Prince of Dorne? (also, back when they were independent, was it called the “Principality of Dorne” or “Princedom of Dorne”?) The Greyjoys never call themselves “Lord Paramount” but then again the books only really show Balon after he declared himself king again. So is Dorne truly unique in its ruling title, or are the Greyjoys also unique? Or are the Greyjoys also Lords Paramount? Or, as I suspect, is it that the Greyjoys insisted on a bunch of grandiose titles (Lord Reaper, Lord of the Salt Seas, etc.) but these are only nominal and meaningless differences, and they are in fact functionally equivalent to Lords Paramount?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Greyjoys in the War of the Usurper

Did the Iron Islands fight in any capacity in Robert’s Rebellion? Or was House Greyjoy neutral, biding its time and waiting for the opportunity to launch the Greyjoy Rebellion?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

The Nightfort and the Kingsroad

Did the Kingsroad always run between Winterfell and Castle Black? Or, did it first run to the Nightfort, but after the Nightfort was abandoned the Kingsroad shifted position to steer further east to Castle Black? The Kingsroad was made by the Targaryens sometimes after the Conquest (300 years ago), and the Nightfort was abandoned during the reign of Jaehaerys I (who reigned from 50 to 100 years after the Conquest). So there was a space of time when the Targaryens were ruling (under Aegon I, Aenys, and Maegor) when they would have built the Kingsroad, but the Nightfort was still technically the headquarters.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:34, November 16, 2013 (UTC)

Westwatch-by-the-Bridge

Something that confuses me about Westwatch-by-the-Bridge vs The Shadow Tower: let me see if I get the geography correct. The Milkwater River carves a giant gorge through the Frostfang Mountains right in front of the western end of the Wall. Theoretically men with climbing equipment can climb down and then up the gorge to go around the Wall (at extreme peril, equal to just scaling the Wall itself), and the only way across is a narrow bridge formed by a natural stone formation, the Bridge of Skulls. And if I understand correctly, does the Wall actually terminate at the Shadow Tower...on the eastern side of the gorge?

Because that's apparently what the book maps imply (see here), but...why the heck would they build Westwatch-by-the-Bridge on the opposite side of the gorge? And not even "along the Wall"? If anything, because the gorge is treated as basically an extension of the Wall...why not have Westwatch on the east side of the gorge? Protecting the space between the Shadow Tower and the ocean? (to guard against wildlings trying to climb through the gorge). What benefit is gained from having Westwatch cut off like that? On the opposite side of the gorge, across the bridge of skulls, not even near the Wall itself?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:21, November 17, 2013 (UTC)

Ironborn, Drowned God, and Night's Watch vows

Most men from the Seven Kingdoms worship the Faith of the Seven so they take their Night's Watch vows in the castle's sept. Castle Black is slightly newer and doesn't actually have a godswood, so recruits who hold to the Old Gods take their vows in front of a heart tree a mile north of the Wall.

As the third major religion in Westeros (these three are the only ones with significant numbers), how would ironborn adherents of the Drowned God take Night's Watch vows? A specific example would be Cotter Pyke, commander of Eastwatch-by-the Sea. Because if recruits are only trained at Castle Black before being assigned to other castles, Castle Black is in the middle of the continent and not near the ocean - so would they bring seawater from Eastwatch or something?

Based on Cotter I assumed that *all* ironborn recruits get sent to Eastwatch - in the present day anyway with only three castles left - because the temptation of aiding ironborn raiders along the west coast is considered too great (is this correct?) -- in which case, do they just hold off on taking their vows until they arrive at Eastwatch and can be bodily dunked into the ocean while taking the vows?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:47, December 14, 2013 (UTC)

Lord of Light religion

What is the origin and center of the Lord of Light religion? Does it come from Asshai? People within the world must have some general idea of where it began (it's not native to the Free Cities is it?)

Also, Stannis and Selyse are devout followers of the Lord of Light religion. Did Shireen convert as well? What is her relationship with the Lord of Light religion? Did she grow up with it? Or are her parents forcibly making her stop all of the Faith of the Seven worship she used to believe in to switch to the Lord of Light religion?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

The Old Gods south of the Neck

Exactly how many families south of the Neck still follow the Old Gods? Are the Blackwoods the only “major” House? I assume on a personal level there might be Old Gods worshipers anywhere, but focusing on major Houses. By which I mean, on the level of the Umbers, Dustins, and Florents; the major dozen or so nobles in each kingdom which are just below Great House (Stark, Lannister) but above “landed knights”. Are the Blackwoods the only major house? Are there holdout First Men in corners of the Red Mountains of Dorne that might still practice it? Are there any worshipers in the Iron Islands? I doubt that, as even the Faith of the Seven is a minority religion there.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Views of religions besides the Seven towards homosexuality

What are the specific views of each major religion towards homosexuality? The Faith of the Seven considers it a sin (or seems to; is that official?). But the Old Gods of the Forest don’t have many “rules” as such. Would a Northerner like Eddard Stark particularly mind if he knew Renly was gay? Due to their lack of strict rules under the Old Gods, are people openly gay in the North as they are in Dorne? Because Hother “Whoresbane” Umber, an elderly and fierce warrior of House Umber, is rumored to be a homosexual (the whore he killed in Oldtown is said to have been a male prostitute) – but only whispered outside of his presence, which would seem to imply that there is some sort of stigma against that.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Slavery in Qohor, Norvos, and Lorath

How widespread is Slavery legally practiced in the Free Cities? The books make clear that the southern Free Cities extensively practice slavery (Volantis, Lys, Myr, and Tyrosh). Slavery is famously illegal in Braavos, due to it being founded by former slaves who fled the Valyrian Freehold. Pentos has nominally abolished slavery due to a treaty that nearby Braavos pressured it into, but wealthy magisters such as Illyrio Mopatis flout this by having "servants" that are slaves in all but name.

So that leaves the little-mentioned northern Free Cities: Qohor, Norvos, and Lorath. We know practically nothing about Lorath (that's a separate question). Qohor is mentioned as hiring Unsullied slave-soldiers, but is that just a special exception? Or is slavery commonplace in Qohor? As for Norvos, it is said that unwanted young boys can be "sold" to the bearded priests of Norvos, who train them as elite longaxe-wielding guardsmen.

So do these other three Free Cities legally practice slavery? Are some like Pentos, nominally outlawing slavery because Braavos pressured them to, but still practicing it unofficially?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:55, November 16, 2013 (UTC)

Coinage in Westeros and Essos

Coins not yet established in the TV series

We've been interested in the worldbuilding associated with Currency in the TV series: so far dialogue has established the Gold Dragon and Copper Penny, though as yet no Silver Stags or other coins. Do the propmasters actually make minted prop-coins with designs on them? We've never been able to see a coin close enough to tell if they do. It would make an interesting "Making Game of Thrones" blog post just to see close-up images of what the designs on prop coins look like.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:06, July 27, 2013 (UTC)

Also, does the Iron Throne control all of the mints? That is, that the crown outright owns the mints? Or are there private mints, though the crown heavily regulates their production?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:06, July 27, 2013 (UTC)

Gold standard vs Fiat Currency

Anyway, we have also begin to see foreign currencies outside the Seven Kingdoms, in "Second Sons" when Mero takes out a Meereenese gold Honor, a Volantene gold Honor (all variants of the "Honor" coin are round), and a squire iron Braavosi coin.

The "Gold Dragon" system in the Seven Kingdoms is apparently based on the "gold standard" of the inherent value of the precious metal in the coin, not a "fiat currency" based on an abstract value (like banknotes). Braavosi coins, however, are made of iron, which just a common metal and has no inherently great value. Thus, in contrast to the "gold standard" followed in the Seven Kingdoms, is Braavos using "fiat currency" based on abstract value? This is important because the Iron Bank of Braavos is the largest financial institution in the known world, and will become more important in later seasons.

Speaking of which, while gold and silver are precious metals, copper is not - and Copper Pennies are the coinage most commonly encountered by the smallfolk. In this case, I take it is similar to how the US dollar worked before it left the gold standard in 1971: dollars were just paper but they still represented actual gold reserves. So even though Copper Pennies have no inherent value, they're still on the "gold standard" (not a fiat currency) because Copper Pennies still represent a fraction of a Gold Dragon? I.e. you bring 11,760 Copper Pennies to the treasury and you can trade them for a Gold Dragon? In which case, wouldn't the Seven Kingdoms need gold reserves of some kind to back up the Copper Pennies?

For that matter, getting back to Braavos, they use square iron coins...but does this mean it's a fiat currency, or that the iron coins actually represent gold reserves held by the Iron Bank?

Laugh at the complexity of this question now if you must, but the growing financial crisis due to sub-prime lending and over-borrowing by the crown is one of the major plotlines of the fourth novel.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:06, July 27, 2013 (UTC)

Surviving local currencies

As fans pointed out how strange it was for the Seven Kingdoms to have uniform currency across an entire continent, George R.R. Martin explained that the currency was unified 300 years ago in the Targaryen Conquest, but that logically they had local currencies before that. Possibly in response, by the fourth novel, there is mention that the Kingdom of the Reach had its own local currency known as "Hands" (for the sigil of House Gardener) which were about the size and weight of a Gold Dragon but were only worth half as much. It even says that while they don't mint new ones, some Hands are still in circulation (surprising, after 300 years). A moment I miss from the books not yet in the TV show is that Olenna Tyrell is savvy enough to keep a chest of Hand coins in her carriage, which she pays to rude toll-takers and tradespeople whom she feels have offended her.

Based on the survival of the "Hand" coin in the Reach, logically, shouldn't Dorne's local currency survive to an even greater degree? They remained independent for 200 years after the Targaryen Conquest, and were only united to the realm 100 years ago through marriage-alliance.

In the "Tales of Dunk and Egg" the main characters actually do visit Dorne some 90 years before Game of Thrones, not many years after Dorne was united to the Iron Throne - but their trip happened mostly "off screen" between the first and second installments, thus no mention of local currency was made.

But particularly given that Dorne becomes increasingly prominent from now on (in both TV series and books), and that local "Hand" currency from 300 years ago survives in the Reach, logically, shouldn't Dorne's local currency survive even more? What was it like during the 200 years in which independent Dorne existed side-by-side with the unified Targaryen realm to the north? Was there a currency barrier? Exchange rate problems? Did Dorne maintain high local tariffs to protect local trade from competition from the unified Targaryen realm? This raises all kinds of questions.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:06, July 27, 2013 (UTC)

New World plants and animals in Westeros

Do New World crops and animals exist in Westeros? Tolkien ran into this problem in Middle-earth with including "tobacco" (pipe-weed), "taters" (poh-tay-toes), and tomatoes (which he flat out removed). On the one hand they're a medieval, pre-Columbian Exchange society -- loosely matching an over-sized British Isles, circa the War of the Roses in the late 1400s. On the other hand, this is a fantsy world, not our world in the distant past or future, and they can have any plants and animals without violating any "rules". The books have literally once or twice in five novels, made passing references to a "turkey" or "pumpkins". The first novel has Theon leave Bran because he saw a turkey to hunt, and later its stated that "pumpkins grow bigger in the Vale even than the pumpkins in the Reach" etc. Or, were these just stray references which on further examination are simple errors which should be disregarded? Because on the other hand, "tobacco" apparently doesn't exist in Westeros...to the point that Martin invented an analogous plant called "Sourleaf" which is much like chewing tobacco, but clearly isn't the same thing (it stains your teeth blood red).

So would we ever see characters eating "potatoes", "tomatoes", "turkey", "pumpkins", "maize-corn", or "bell peppers", etc? Is it impossible to see characters smoking tobacco pipes, or eating chocolate?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:26, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

Crackclaw Point

This is a silly question, but I myself am from the New York area, and GRRM is from this region of the country (New Jersey). Is Crackclaw Point inspired by the Pine Barrens of southern New Jersey? We have Pine Barrens out on LI as well. It just struck me as more than coincidence: both are regions surprisingly near a major city which are filled with dense forests, hills, and bogs, with fiercely independent hillybilly types who resist outside control.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:41, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

Queensgard

I've checked but the books are unclear on this matter: is "Queensgard" a term that Daenerys Targaryen made up for her Kingsguard, or, is "Queensgard" the actual term when the monarch is female? Because there has never been a Ruling Queen before - ever since they altered the succession laws after Rhaenyra Targaryen pressed her claim to the throne during the civil war known as the Dance of Dragons. If so, is "Queensgard" the official, albeit theoretical name for the Kingsguard of a Ruling Queen? A key question relevant to this: did Rhaenyra herself establish her own "Queensgard" during the Dance with Dragons, thus establishing that "Queensgard" is indeed the official term? (or, possibly, is there no official difference in terminology, but Rhaenrya just made up the term "Queensgard" too because she liked the sound of it? And Daenerys, aware of this bit of history, copied it?). I hope the novella The Princess and the Queen sheds more light on this. Personally, my time period of focus is twelfth to thirteenth century - the War of the Five Kings is based on the War of the Roses, which is fifteenth century, different social context entirely. But I've been exposed to a lot of info about the Anarchy of Stephen and Matlida, the rise and fall of the Angevins, and it's really cool that the Dance was basically that...plus dragons! --The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:35, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

"The Princess and the Queen" seems to indicate that "Queensguard" is indeed the proper term used when there is a female monarch, as this is what Rhaenyra's bodyguards are called. Can anyone confirm this?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:39, July 7, 2014 (UTC)

Kingsguard heraldry

What are the rules of Heraldry for the Kingsguard? In some sources we've heard that they use just a plain white banner - indeed, only a Kingsguard has the legal right to display an all-white banner. Yet in the sample chapter of The Winds of Winter, Barristan mentions his squire carrying the banner of the Kingsguard, displaying seven silver swords encircling a golden crown. Which is it?

Is the silver swords and gold crown version the "battle flag" of the Kingsguard? And/or is it the flag of the Kingsguard as "an organization", but individual Kingsguard would only use the white banner?

That is, if a Kingsguard is leading an army on royal orders, he would display the swords and crowns banner? But if he personally entered into a tournament to compete at a joust, he isn't on "royal orders", so he'd just use a plain white banner?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:45, July 7, 2014 (UTC)

Greyscale

What is the difference between Greyscale and the Grey Plague? Because I've heard overlapping information and even A Wiki of Ice and Fire is a bit vague. My understanding was that Greyscale is usually fatal, but if you survive, you're left horribly scarred but will never catch it again and thus never die of it (like chicken pox). In which case, what is the Grey Plague? Particularly, Shireen "has greyscale" - does this mean that the disease is advancing and she will eventually get worse? That doesn't seem the case, as it's said she got it "as a baby" but survived it - survived, as in completed action, it's not a threat anymore.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:40, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Shireen doesn't have greyscale, she's scarred by it. The Grey plague are outbreaks of greyscale, to which those that survived it in childhood are immune. --Gonzalo84 (talk) 23:12, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Does Shireen still "have" Greyscale and it is just dormant? I thought she fought it off and doesn't "have" it anymore, just the scarring. Specifically, if it is "dormant", can people with "dormant" greyscale have a flare-up years later which will kill them? Obviously greyscale is a fictional disease, but would you describe it as like "leprosy", "really bad smallpox" (it leaves scarring but you don't lose fingers from it) or a bit of both?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:41, July 7, 2014 (UTC)

Brienne of Tarth

Why is Brienne of Tarth called "Brienne of Tarth" instead of just "Brienne Tarth", in the format used by most other noble Houses? Does her father also use this format, and call himself "Selwyn of Tarth"? Is this some unique cultural attribute of Tarth? (possibly due to its proximity to the Free Cities) -- or is this because it is an island? I mean, Jorah is formally styled "Jorah Mormont of Bear Island" but then against Tyrion is formally "Tyrion Lannister of Casterly Rock". Is this something islands do? Or because the name of the island and the House name are both "Tarth" (thus saying "Brienne Tarth of Tarth" would be redundant). Or, is this a character quirk that only Brienne herself does?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:51, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

House Blackfyre

Did House Blackfyre have its own words? Or did it re-use the "Fire and Blood" motto of House Targaryen? Or were its own words reversed as was its heraldry, i.e. "Blood and Fire"? And did they actually "hold" any lands during the first rebellion? Daemon is never mentioned as lord of any specific castle.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:19, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Wards and Guest Right

What is the relationship between wards such as Theon Greyjoy and Guest right? Because it seems that there are two kinds of "ward" - wards taken on as apprentices and such (when Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon were both voluntary wards of Jon Arryn), and wards who are political hostages, such as Theon Greyjoy.

Would Eddard or Robert, who were voluntary guests, be seen as violating guest right if they attacked Jon Arryn (or one of his household) while fostering as wards at the Eyrie?

In contrast, given that Theon Greyjoy was a prisoner, not a "guest" per se, would he be seen as violating Guest Right if he betrayed the Starks?

Well, two situations there: would Theon have violated Guest Right if he killed one of the Starks maybe five years before the narrative begins, when Lord Eddard was seated at Winterfell?

What actually happened was that he attacked Robb's castle Winterfell while Robb was away on campaign and took him with him...I'm not sure if he was released from his ward-ship by that point. Was he? In either situation, did Theon "violate" guest right when he turned on the Starks? I think he didn't, because he wasn't staying at Winterfell at the time, he attacked Winterfell from without.

So in all permutations, what are the conditions of ward-ship regarding Guest right? And in each plausible scenario, would Theon have violated Guest Right or not?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:16, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

Valyrian, Daenerys Targaryen's "mother-tongue", and Arya Stark

Is Low Valyrian indeed Daenerys Targaryen's "mother-tongue"? That is, specifically, is her "internal thought monologue" in Low Valyrian? Does she "think" in Low Valyrian?

Because Viserys was raised in King's Landing, presumably the Common Tongue was his cradle-speech. Daenerys grew up in Braavos - the servants kicked her and Viserys out when Ser Willem Darry died, but she was old enough to remember this so she apparently learned to speak in Braavos. Willem and Viserys probably spoke the Common Tongue around her, but then again, the servants who cared for her might have spoken Braavosi Low Valyrian. So I'm not certain if when she learned to speak, she learned the Common Tongue of the Andals or Low Valyrian -- I'm not too familiar with children raised in bilingual homes, though, how this affects what language they "think" in.

Then of course Daenerys spent the rest of her life bouncing around between the different Free Cities: from Braavos to Myr, then to Tyrosh, then to Qohor, then to Volantis, then to Lys, and ultimately to Pentos (each of the Free Cities except Norvos and Lorath (what goes on in Lorath?!). They never lived in one place for more than a few months, and their stay in Pentos with Illyrio was actually the longest time they had lived in one place since Braavos (for six months in the books, but stated to be over a year in the TV series).

Anyway, this meant that Daenerys spent her entire life living in areas where Low Valyrian was the language of the majority population - particularly after Ser Willem died, Viserys was her only constant companion who spoke Common Tongue. As the language of the lands they rightfully ruled, I would suppose that Viserys insisted that Daenerys learn to speak the Common Tongue, or maybe even made it a point to speak with her in the Common Tongue in everyday conversation. He'd at least insist she know how to speak it, but would he himself speak it with her all the time?

Because on the other hand, when the Targaryens originally invaded Westeros, did the royal family continue to speak Valyrian as a court language? Similar to how in real life Anglo-Norman would be spoken at the court of King Henry II instead of Old English? If so, did this continue for 300 years, to the point that even the generation of Aerys, Rhaegar, and Viserys learned and spoke Valyrian as the everyday court language? Or, did they acculturate to using the Common Tongue of the Andals they ruled over - much as they stopped following the Valyrian religion to follow the Faith of the Seven, to better fit in with the population they attempted to rule over?

Even so, did the Targaryens make it a point of pride to teach their children Valyrian? Tyrion Lannister knows High Valyrian, as he learned it at the knee of his maester (much as a medieval noble might learn Latin). The bookish Samwell Tarly also knows Valyrian, and can read books in Valyrian relatively well. Heck, even Arya Stark had to take Valyrian lessons from her teachers growing up (though as with most 10 year olds who took some French or Latin lessons, she doesn't know Valyrian very well). This raises a separate question: in the TV-invented scene of Melisandre visiting the Brotherhood Without Banners in "The Climb", she speaks High Valyrian with Thoros of Myr and the Brotherhood can't understand what they're saying...logically, Arya has been taught High Valyrian by Maester Luwin, so does Arya actually know what they're saying? Not too much of a problem here though, as I'd again chalk it up to "a ten year old who took some basic Latin lessons would still have difficulty following a conversation between two fluent speakers" -- and in the books, characters from Braavos do remark that while Arya knows some High Valyrian, it needs a lot of work.

If all of these others knew Valyrian it stands to reason that the Targaryens made it a point that their children knew Valyrian -- though a separate question is, did they just know it, or outright speak it as their cradle-speech and everyday language? But Daenerys wasn't raised in King's Landing so that's not relevant for her.

So all of these are questions brought up about which characters know Valyrian, the Targaryens' attitudes towards the Valyrian language, and if Daenerys outright "thinks" in Valyrian as her mother-tongue/cradle-speech.

Another question is, what variants of Valyrian does Daenerys know? The first novel didn't really expand upon the idea that there are different variants of Low Valyrian that are no longer mutually intelligible, and arguably different languages by this point: the fifth novel, however, outright states that "they're not so much dialects as nine divergent tongues on the way to becoming separate languages". Vaguely though, even the first novel established some difference between them. The point is, when Daenerys is speaking "Valyrian" to the wine-seller in Vaes Dothrak, he guesses that she is from Tyrosh - and she did spend time in Tyrosh, though she spent more in Braavos and Pentos. She's been to every Free City except Norvos and Lorath. So logically, which variants does she know? Slaver's Bay Valyrian is different enough that she didn't know it at first, but it was similar enough that she picked it up quickly (she understood Kraznys because he was speaking in High Valyrian, not Low Valyrian/Ghiscari Valyrian).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:59, July 25, 2013 (UTC)