TV vs books
The Battle of Stone Mill is clearly described as taking place between Edmure's army and the forces under Gregor Clegane, the same forces left behind to guard Harrenhal. Tywin had already gone to the Blackwater. It is not explicitly stated that the battle took place before the Blackwater. In fact, the implication is that it took place relatively shortly before the episode began.--Werthead (talk) 07:33, April 16, 2013 (UTC)
- I am strongly opposed to this interpretation. Due to slow medieval communications, yes, the Battle of Stone Mill preceded the Battle of the Blackwater, as the Mountain is now with Tywin in King's Landing. We find out about it in "Walk of Punishment" but it is retroactively established as happening before Blackwater. This article should be reverted back.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:13, April 21, 2013 (UTC)
- -Wrong, the Dragon Demands. The Mountain is not in King's Landing; he is in Casterly Rock in Season 3. It is made clear in the same episode you cite when Edmure is talking about the battle.
- The articles in this wiki regarding the troop movements of Tywin, Robb and the Mountain's armies during the periods of late season 2 and early season 3 are unclear in their confusion between the book canon and the show canon.
- My understanding of the show is that in Episode 8 of Season Two, Tywin decides to march, and it is left deliberately ambiguous by the writers whether he marches west or east though it is slightly implied that he marches west (he actually directly marches east to King's Landing and leaves the Mountain to garrison Harrenhal, which is the surprise at the end of Episode 9).
- Then, though it is not explicitly stated in the show, the Freys abandon the Stark army after Robb marries Talisa in Episode 10 of season 2. And this is where I think the show kind of screws itself up, because suddenly Episode 1 of Season 3, Robb has left the Westerlands and is marching on Harrenhal. To get to Harrenhal from around the Crag where Robb's army was last seen in Season 2, the most obvious route would be to go through Riverrun and the Riverlands along the River Road of the Red Fork of the Trident, which would mean that Robb would be marching on Harrenhal from the West. This is important, since when Robb's army arrives at Harrenhall the Mountain, probably aware that Robb's army is approaching and will kick his ass if he tries to hold the castle, has already abandoned Harrenhal and retreated to the West, to the Stone Mill.
- Though, it's also pretty clear that Robb's army did not stop in at Riverrun between Season 2 and 3 because Catelyn doesn't see her father before he dies. So, it would seem that if the Mountain had retreated West and Robb marched from the West they would have come across each other or at least had scouts reporting one another's location, which would make Robb's capture of Harrenhal redundant. So maybe Robb took a different route to Harrenhal? From the south, maybe?
- I am confused by what exactly happened between Season 2 and 3 with Robb Stark's troop movements, and this wiki does not offer any insightful information, itself confusing events that happened in the books regarding Edmure's battle at the Stone Mill with what happens in the show. -- Dogs, September 8, 2013.
- "Harrenhal" is spelled with only one L. Please make a wikia account instead of editing anonymously.
- 1 - You do bring up the fact that in dialogue from episode 3, Edmure says "I sent Gregor Clegane scurrying back to Casterly Rock".
- 2 - "The Wiki" is NOT UNCLEAR in its description of troop movements in seasons 2 and 3 - the TV SHOW has been doing a bad job of keeping it straight, even though it wasn't all that complicated in the books. "The problem" we've been having, you see...is that if they made a change between books and TV show, a conscious choice, that would be one thing. George R.R. Martin calls this the "Butterfly Effect" - if you change one thing it has ripple-effects on how that interlocks with other aspects of the plot. And...quite simply...the writers haven't always thought out the wider implications AT ALL.
- So you approach this with the assumption that an official "TV version" of events exists - the problem is that the writers never even thought out some of the wider implications of the changes. Heck, since SEASON ONE, the decision to truncate the Battle of Green Fork and eastern theater of the war and focus all of the Stark army at Riverrun.....REALLY screwed up their army sizes and movements. And they settle for a quick-fix more often than not. If they only send a feint to Green Fork, that means Robb's army is almost doubled in size....so their quick-fix was to simply double the size of the Lannister army he was facing. Which is absurd, because the Lannisters cannot field an army of 60,000 men....or if they can, it means the Reach's numbers have to be doubled as well. It just breaks down after a while.
- You have to remember: this is a fictional story, not a documentary. It's not a detective story where we ultimately figure out what "really happened" -- quite simply it's a god damned continuity error because the writers didn't think it out well enough. This means that there is simply no "answer" to correct the conflicting statements.
- 3 - I am also confused why Tywin made such a big declaration about "we're going west to fight Robb" only to then go east to King's Landing, in the TV series. The TV series writers seem to really like the idea of sudden plot twists, when in the books there were twists but they often had setup that you should have realized. I understand that subtle plots in the books would be too obvious in a visual medium (subtle hints that the Red Wedding was going to happen made sense in a book, but would have given away the twist before it happened in a TV show). Still, why would Tywin make such a big proclamation to his generals? To discourage spies? Or is it implied he simply changed his mind along the way?
- 4 - I'm not too upset about the idea of Robb pulling out of the Westerlands at the Crag, then going to Harrenhal...it is possible that he did so without returning to Riverrun first - in which case Hoster simply died in the brief period of days after they left - but they could have just gone through the southern Riverlands if they were in a hurry.
- 5 - You say that Gregor Clegane could not have retreated "west" if Robb was attacking from the west or thereabouts. The version I support is that the entire Lannister army moved east to King's Landing, and Gregor Clegane left as well, not even bothering to leave a token garrison at Harrenhal. Looking at a map, however, it is extremely difficult and close to impossible for Gregor Clegane to "retreat west TO Stone Mill" AFTER Robb began marching towards Harrenhal: Stone Mill is a major river crossing of the Red Fork -- depending on the angle Robb came in at, he would have to either A - advance through Robb's army to get to Stone Mill - indeed, Robb probably marched through Stone Mill on his way there, or B - Robb came from further south, didn't go to Riverrun first but when through the High Heart region of the Riverlands closer to the Gold Road....in which case, Gregor would be retreating past Robb to the south and Edmure at Riverrun to the North. It just doesn't make sense, the smarter more logical choice would be to retreat to King's Landing --- in short, Stone Mill had to have happened BEFORE Robb arrived at Harrenhal.
- 6 - "I am confused by what exactly happened between Season 2 and 3 with Robb Stark's troop movements, and this wiki does not offer any insightful information, itself confusing events that happened in the books regarding Edmure's battle at the Stone Mill with what happens in the show." -- I hope you realize how insolent and rude you sound. "The Wiki" didn't provide insightful information?" The WRITERS screwed up and we're left to clean up their mess. What answer could we give when none exists?
- "Confusing the TV show with the books" -- pray tell, what happened "In the TV show?" As I explained before, they didn't present us with two, coherent and self-consistent, alternate versions. Spiderman has organic web-shooters in one continuity, he doesn't in another; that is a "fact". We're trying to use book information to fill in the gaps because the TV show didn't even present a coherent alternate version - retreating west through Robb's army to Casterly Rock? How? And why would Robb consider that a failure when he *wanted* to lure the Lannisters back to Casterly Rock in the west? It just doesn't make sense. So the first step is for you to present to us, coherently, what the "TV version" was - I'm not mocking you. How can the TV version have Robb angry at Edmure for forcing Clegane to retreat back to Casterly Rock, by declaring that he wanted Edmure to lure him into the west...where Casterly Rock is?
- 7 - Above all, the dialogue from that episode just doesn't match up: Edmure: "I defeated Gregor Clegane and sent him scurrying back to Casterly Rock! [Which is in the WEST]", Robb: "I wanted to lure him into the WEST!".....you see within the same scene, within two lines in face, they're just stating a contradiction. "He retreated back to Casterly Rock!" "I told you to lure him into the west!" "Casterly Rock IS in the west!"....and so forth. There are two ways for a major army to get to the Westerlands from Casterly Rock: first is to cross the Red Fork south-to-north at Red Fork, at a major ford like Stone Mill....they explicitly said Gregor got pushed back from Stone Mill, so that's out. The other option is to go really, really far out of your way south, then loop around back west on the Gold Road. The dialogue just doesn't add up.
- 8 - I did what I could by adding this to the "Cargo Cult", the list of questions we'd submit to the writers if ever given the chance. However, we haven't gained their attention, and they're mostly handling convention Q&A about "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" over and over again instead of particular info such as this. The struggle continues. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:39, September 8, 2013 (UTC)
I still insist that this battle occurred before the Battle of the Blackwater, just "off screen", but we'll need further information (from the Season 3 Blu-ray?) to settle this.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:27, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
Given that I'm no longer putting up with Adam's half thought out nonsense, the Battle of Stone Mill is now synonymous with the Battle of the Fords in the novels: OBVIOUSLY, the IMPLICATION is that the battle occurred "off screen" in Season 2. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:04, February 19, 2015 (UTC)
Are we sure that information about Clegane retreating to fight at Blackwater makes sense? While I completely agree that Stone Mill had to happen before Robb's entry into Harrenhal (he had to be in the west to lure Clegane there, after all), Clegane fighting at Blackwater can be possible only if his group moves twice as fast as Tywin's:
1)Robb says that he was setting a trap specifically for Clegane, thus implying that Tywin had already left (also, any battle like this before Tywin left woul've likely been mentioned in Season 2);
2) So, Clegane has to stay in Harrenhal for some time, go to the Mill, return to Harrenhal and then to King's Landing... and still somehow make it in time? By this time, the siedge should be long over.
So, wouldn't it be easier to say that Clegane retreated, but not mention where? This way we can avoid another plot hole.
And before someone asks, Edmure's comment about Casterly Rock can be handwaved as a)a metaphor; b)another sign of his incompetence; c)assumption that Clegane left for Casterly Rock after abandoning Harrenhal, perhaps using one of the southern roads.
I must admit, information about Blackwater seems blatantly impossible to me, but I'd rather ask the more knowledgeable people first.