Minor and Big changes
Cersei and the "unborn Baratheon" baby? lesser change, pretty much implied in some of the books in which Cersei says she ate Robert's semen after he finished on her face or mouth and she was delighted with the notion of eating Robert's offspring and him being none the wiser.
Osha and Yara/Asha? its the same bloody character with a different name.
Robb/Talisa stuff? as long as we don't get a JUDGMENT (re: BAD, WRONG, GOOD, POSITIVE, NEGATIVE) and the accompanying words (like Mary Sue or Flanderization or something along those lines), evertying is ok. PERIODGonzalo84 (talk) 09:02, March 9, 2013 (UTC)
Stannis (and Melisandre)
Am I the only one feeling the character Stannis has changed a lot from the books? (especialy in season 3) His moral compass seems to be very different and he follows every command of Melisandre. The same goes for Melisandre, she seems to be pure evil, while in the books she's far more grey.
In general, in the books it seems to be Davos vs. Melisandre, where Stannis weighs every decision between them, with Davos representing what's moraly right and Melisandre representing what is needed for Stannis to become King). In the series, it's more Davos vs. both Stannis and Melisandre. Stannis in the books sees the Throne as his duty, while Stannis in the series sees the Throne as his right.--18.104.22.168
- I'm annoyed people dwell on this; the writers explained that they want to show Character Growth over time, which is easier to do in the books than the TV series. Thus if you pay attention to the entire season, Stannis *starts out* heavily reliant upon Melisandre, particularly after his defeat at the Blackwater, but over time he moves away from that heavy reliance. Cogman described this as his "withdrawal" phase, when Melisandre leaves for a while so he spends time thinking apart from her, i.e. meeting with his family for the first time in weeks in "Kissed by Fire", etc. All they're doing is dragging out the will he/won't he a bit more of "will Stannis do the right thing?" -- TV adaptations do this a lot, I wasn't too surprised, but moreover, didn't feel it really conflicted with the book: i.e. even in the books, Stannis debates whether to follow Melisandre's advice to burn Edric Storm but eventually comes to Davos' side. Bryan Cogman (who was specifically in charge of writing the Stannis/Dragonstone arc scenes) explained this a bit more in this interview: .--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:05, July 20, 2013 (UTC)
Factors for inclusion
Going off Marei-topic, the truth is that I'm seeing a danger with this template, since several characters gave undergone "significant" changes. What is the line between significant and non-significant? I fear we'll end up adding all characters. For example:
- Cohollo and Haggo: Demoted to extras
- Vardis Egen: a combination of Donnel Waynwood, Brynden Tully and Vardis Egen.
- The Greatjon: dropped since season 2. He even becomes the commander of a separate portion of the Northern army.
- Aggo: Demoted to extra and dropped
- Margaery: Age lift, much more overtly ambitious and more of a sexpot instead of the rather nice girl from the books.
- Torrhen Karstark: Surviving further into the storyline
- Blackfish is changed from Edmure's cool second to a grumpy guy who can barely stand Edmure, plus being merged with the Greatjon.
- Martyn Lannister: Not Willem Lannister's twin. Killed in the adaptation
- Roose Bolton: some of the book's characterization (soft-spoken, leeches and being a health-nut) is dropped
- Rast: Taking over from Chett and Ollo Lophand
- Karl: Replacing Dirk and Clubfoot Karl.
They actually show what Margaery does and arguably the characterization is slightly different, but it is still fairly subjective over how much she was "changed" - just showing stuff "off screen".
The basic "rule of thumb" I had when I cobbled together this list was "characters whom GRRM himself has specifically said aren't like their book counterparts". And he seems to think TV-Margaery is close enough.
Absent or condensed characters I'm not too worried about - GreatJon's absence is annoying but I think he's just "off screen". People complain about making Blackfish a bit more GreatJon-like...but with GreatJon unavailable due to actor constraints, it sort of made sense to combine a few elements.
Side note: GreatJon isn't in books four and five. Given that so much of his material was going to be in Seasons 2 and 3...they should have recast if the actor was unavailable. Season 2, fine, they can't predict the future, maybe the actor just needs a season off. But when the actor wouldn't return for Season 3 they should have recast him, that was unreasonable.
...they didn't really change Roose Bolton that much. He does speak politely and softly. He is sort of a health nut - no mention of the prunes and leechings - yet - but we have seen repeatedly that he doesn't drink alcohol.
Generally it's supposed to be a "guide for TV-first fans", so "characters demoted to extra" shouldn't concern them too much, such as Cohollo and Haggo.
You're right, Martyn Lannister is a big changeup.
In general, the line for "significant" vs "non-significant" is blurry, and we should be conservative about declaring it - but the two factors which merit inclusion in the list are:
- George R.R. Martin specifically mentioned, in a cited quote, that he feels the character was drastically changed.
- Death - which does not synch up with death in the books. Such as Old Nan or Irri.
- Is it worth noting that Tormund is changed from a jolly old warrior to a young hardass in the show? I thought the showrunners merged him with Styr, but know it seems Styr going to appear in Season 4. --Martell (talk) 19:02, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
- The big thing is "fundamental biographical details get changed" -- We're all annoyed they didn't make Tormund as jolly...but then in "The Bear and the Maiden Fair", which GRRM himself wrote, he was closer to book-Tormund.
- This wasn't meant to be a definitive listing of every character who was slightly different - just the ones so drastically changed that 1 - GRRM himself pointed it out, or 2 - they're dead now but alive in the books (or vice versa), or 3 - it's so drastically different that we think TV-first fans would be "confused" (i.e. Brynden might be a bit like GreatJon in the TV series, but that's just minor personality stuff - it wouldn't outright "confuse" people watching only the TV version - while in contrast, "what the hell is with this Qarth storyline" sort of needs explanation.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:15, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
- Then we should add Barristan, Stannis, Shireen, Myrcella and even Hizdahr. Ellaria Sand and Trystane as well.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 23:37, July 9, 2015 (UTC)
Alright, let's start over here:
First, the article needs some major revisions to bring it up to standards/tone down a few bits.
Then the Season 5 changes:
- The Dorne storyline - Ellaria Sand, the Sand Snakes...Trystane wasn't that different.
- Myrcella and Hizdahr haven't died yet but we should at least point it out.
- I'm starting to suspect that Barristan's death was not a condensation but purely for the plot mechanics of having Tyrion meet Daenerys this season.
- "The North - Stannis" (Stannis? Melisandre? Shireen?)...at least leave a note that "we're not sure how "in-character" this is because they said they drastically condensed something from a future novel"
- "The North - Sansa" - Sansa Stark doesn't marry Ramsay Bolton. No need to list Ramsay, Reek, etc. in header but they'll be discussed here.
- Should we include Brienne in this? Tonally she isn't that different, more of a storyline change.
- "Jon Snow's death" - the reasons for the mutiny are entirely different and not even internally consistent.
...Condensing Meryn Trant with Raff wasn't entirely unfounded, but drastic enough (pedophilia?) and permanent enough (death) that we should probably mention it.
Then we round out the new characters:
- Olly (from last season)