Wiki of Westeros

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Wiki of Westeros
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Wiki of Westeros

I am aware of the IMDB updates. But let's wait until we get an official casting announcement from HBO before listing anything here.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:14, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Race[]

I've been meaning to say something about this, but the recent set photos that have surfaced, featuring an abundance of black actors in silver wigs have forced the point.

It is not necessary or desirable for us, as a wiki, to try and force changes the adaptation makes to work with the books. That's not our job. There is no single "storyverse"... There is the bookverse, and the showverse, and this wiki is about the latter. In the show, there are black Valyrians and the Verlaryons are among them. It's a change, but a welcome one. It doesn't require defending of explaining with obscure trivia from the books. - Xanderen signature 14:06, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm speculating on how they're going to explain the change. And unfortunately, it's come under such attack that it merits saying something. Not trying to force it to work with the books, but pointing out "this is indeed a change from the books" but "by degree it's not a very drastic change". Much like noting "Salladhor Saan is white in the books, but the Free Cities are racially mixed so this isn't some giant contradiction to the established storyverse"...compared to "At the end of Season 7, even ignoring the books, prior seasons established that dragons, the raven network, and a running man aren't fast enough for any of this to plausible happen."

The showverse is an adaptation of the bookverse. I happen to think making Corlys black is actually a really interesting idea, more than how the Velaryons were "Targaryen Light" in the books.

But this isn't really obscure and enough people keep asking about it. Someone would point out "he's black", so we might as well do it better. Many do want to know "what the books say about this" in context, without resorting to the fallback of "the books are the books and the show is the show". And not just from the perspective of racist criticism, but from the other end of the spectrum, those making the specific complaint that a powerful black nobleman could not exist in this world without resorting to saying "it doesn't have to fit their social structure, it just is". I feel that not defending it would be the disservice.

But this is all placeholder - I look forward to the writing staff's comments on this so we can incorporate those. If they were smarter they'd have had GRRM discuss this casting in a blog post with his thoughts on the race issue. Instead we get only silence.

However, given how prominent Targaryen incest was in the first series, I actively anticipate that they'll present some sort of explanation. Something along the lines of Martin saying in a behind the scenes video "the lower ranking Valyrian families out in the colonies weren't as strict about blood purity" (mirroring what he said in World of Ice & Fire), and then we just cite that prominently. This is all just a placeholder. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:18, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I understand the debate about whether this needs to be "justified" with book citations at all, that - while all acknowledge it's a change - there's a question of "is this a change that breaks the rules of the storyverse"? This is an ongoing, broader question for media in general with race-swapping a character, other changes, etc. The counter-argument, which I side with, is that it comes under attack as not "representation of merit" if it's a totally raceblind, Bridgerton situation. That it would be like saying "black people aren't really part of this worldbuilding, so the only way to put them in was to recast some white characters, without explanation.

But it's an ongoing debate: while all agree it's a change, do we even need to justify it as "plausible within the context of the worldbuilding for this specific fictional universe"? I think we should. If it wasn't plausible, I'd point that out too.

That being said, if we were to have a comparison to the setting of the books, do you take issue with anything specific in the writeup I actually made?

I mean I know there's a philosophical debate over "does this need justification at all?", but if we were to present "a justification" is this one sound/thorough/well-cited?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:34, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I've been dealing in hypotheticals, I should explain: I was doing a livechat with YouTube channel "Jayne Theory" a while ago, which is what sparked me to do this writeup. Because she, a black woman reviewer, said that she would in fact feel insulted if there was no in-universe explanation for this, would be specifically offended by a shrug that "the books are the books and the show is different", without some attempt to justify this change in context of book citations. So I then went ahead and did a writeup to provide that.

I mean look around on Reddit: there are many people - who I don't know and don't interact with - asking this very same specific question: "How does this change fit within established lore?"

https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/n8d9y4/corlys_casting_how_it_can_work_and_still_match/

--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:39, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Would you like to move it to the "In the Books" section? I only didn't because so much is under spoiler tags--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:01, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

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