The Great Dothraki Theology Debate
The "belief" section should be better in a "Dothraki religion" article. This article should be about just about the Great Stallion.Gonzalo84 23:31, July 6, 2012 (UTC)
- We don't really have much content for "Great Stallion" alone and of itself. It makes more sense to functionally treat this as the "Dothraki religion" page. Even Wiki of Ice and Fire treats "Great Stallion", "Drowned God", "Faith of the Seven", and "Lord of Light" as the de facto pages about their respective religions. It doesn't really make much sense to have separate pages for "The Seven", or "Faith of the Lord of Light" (given that they call it just "The Lord of Light"). Wikis are not paper, but this is in terms of ease of use and convenient navigation for casual readers who don't know what they're looking for. I will abide by Werthead's decision...--The Dragon Demands 00:02, July 7, 2012 (UTC)
- Werthead is the founder of the wiki and I respect his opinion but he is no way the final authority on anything. Wikis run on consensus.--Opark 77 13:44, July 7, 2012 (UTC)
- Yup, wikis run on the decisions of the members. I only have one vote and no final say on anything.--Werthead 08:43, July 8, 2012 (UTC)
Yes, wikis are not paper, and that's precisely the reason why we can have a large article for the religion itself and short articles for details like the Great Stallion.--Gonzalo84 06:11, July 7, 2012 (UTC)
I think it makes sense to have an article about the Dothraki religion in general and then a subarticle about this element of the religion. If the argument is about ease of navigation then I think it is a lot easier for our readers to find information about the Dothraki religion in an article about the Dothraki religion rather than the article about a specific aspect of that religion.--Opark 77 13:44, July 7, 2012 (UTC)
My opinion is that where possible religious articles should be conflated into one, with redirects or sub-sections as necessary. Pages on 'The Seven' and on 'The Faith of the Seven' would be identical, as the former should have a section on how they are worshipped and in what form and the latter should have detailed information about the deities themselves. The same applies for pretty much all of the religions, especially as some of them don't have such neatly divided names (i.e. the Drowned God and Lord of Light don't have separate names for the gods and the religions, so we'd have to make them up which would lead into areas too speculative for the wiki to go). For the Dothraki religion, it makes sense to have a 'Great Stallion' page (as that is the name of the god) and have 'Dothraki religion' as a redirect to it.--Werthead 08:43, July 8, 2012 (UTC)
I have to disagree because of the following:
- The Dothraki are not precisely monotheistic. They recognize the existance of other gods such as the sun, the moon.
- If "Dothraki religion" redirects to the Great Stallion, then all the other religious concepts should also redirect to Great Stallion, for example: the Night Lands and the Mother of Mountains.--Gonzalo84 08:52, July 8, 2012 (UTC)
If you are against small separate articles, these should all be redirected to "Dothraki religion", not the other way around. I would also be against this because this is not Wikipedia.--Gonzalo84 08:52, July 8, 2012 (UTC)
In agreement with Werthead, it was a mistake to try to make a separate page for "The Seven", and I think it should be merged back into "Faith of the Seven", unless the Faith of the Seven page eventually gets so long that we're looking for a convenient way to shorten it. This isn't wikipedia, but there shouldn't be numerous small separate articles for things which are thematically similar - I do think we should have articles on basically every "proper noun", but...well, no one has suggested making a separate page for "The Mother", because that would be very short, and is more informative in context. ***We have to remember that the great multitude of casual readers don't read wikis the way we do. TV-first fans who don't really use wikis and who *don't know what they're looking for*. We already know about "the Drowned God", they're essentially stumbling into it. Keeping that in mind, we need to go an extra step to make sure that casual TV viewers can easily access information, and in the religion articles, I think its best to have one main page for each major religion, describing all aspects of it, and only branching them off if thematically it makes sense ("Drowned Men" sort of deserves its own page separate from "Drowned God"). If and when they mention the Storm God, I think we should make a page with brief, pertinent info given on it, but linking back to the main "Drowned God" page, about the entire religion.
But to focus on practical matters...I basically agree with Werthead. The books never introduced a separate name for the "Faith of the Lord of Light" or "Lord of Light religion" so we shouldn't introduce one. As it stands, I don't think we should make separate pages for "Ironborn religion", "Lhazareen religion" etc. when they'd be more identifiable as "Drowned God" in searches. Well, admins can debate the article titles themselves....But anyway, overhauling the Lord of Light religion pages now....there is no reason to have a separate page on just "the Lord of Light". The TV show doesn't mention much that's specifically about R'hllor and not the religion as a whole. Heck, the books haven't really differentiated them that much either.
I'm going on too many tangents. Basically, there are four major religions within the TV series and books: Old Gods of the Forest, The Faith of the Seven, the Drowned God, and the Lord of Light. Given the focus on Dothraki culture their beliefs are also fairly important but not given as much focus as "religion" so much as "custom", etc. These are the four articles that will be affected the most. For all four, we should largely do what we've been doing: have one main page, and sub-pages for proper nouns that might got into slightly more detail, i.e. the "Heart tree" article is a bit more in-depth than the overview in "Old Gods". Everything associated with the Old Gods follows this pattern now; things like "Silent Sisters" should get their own in-depth article (more room for photos from the TV show that way). I think the article on the Seven should be merged unless that means there won't be enough room for the seven screenshots of each of them, in which case I think it should stay; the big difference between AWIAOF devoted to the books and this wiki is that a TV show has screenshots, so we should have any that are distinct and informative. "Faith of the Lord of Light" seems counter-intuitive and should just go back to "Lord of Light". Drowned God and related info are good.
Ack, rambling again. Well these are the practical effects I'm arguing for:
- We might want to merge "the Seven" back into "Faith of the Seven", unless this means there won't be room for photos.
- In general, we shouldn't invent new names for religions, thus rather than making pages on "Drowned God religion" and "Faith of the Lord of Light", we should heuristically stick with "Drowned God" and "Lord of Light". These pages will talk about the central figure in the religion, as well as the religion as a whole, and maybe separate articles on different sub-aspects (when the time comes, we may have a short page on Storm God, mostly just so people who hear it in the TV show and enter it into the search box will be told to read more about it on the "Drowned God" page).
- I agree with Gonzalo84's point that the Dothraki religion doesn't actually seem to monotheistically follow the Great Stallion. I was treating it like the Drowned God or Lord of Light, but really Dothraki religious activity is much more diverse -- how its integrated into custom and culture, superstition in general -- so actually you're right, it makes more sense in that instance to have a "Dothraki religion" page.
- For minor religions -- Great Shepherd, Lord of Harmony, etc. -- we will have little information, so it should all go on one page for each. And for ease of access, each should probably just go by the title of the deity, i.e. "Lord of Harmony" not "Lord of Harmony religion".
So keeping all of this in mind, I think maybe we should keep "the Seven" page...UNLESS you guys think it would look aesthetically tolerable to insert a gallery of these images into the middle of the page? You know what, I'll experiment with that just to see what it looks like, but it may just as easily be voted down. "Lord of Light" should encompass the religion itself. And the "Great Stallion" should be treated as one part of "Dothraki religion". --The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:36, July 31, 2012 (UTC)
I don't think that The Seven and the Faith should be merged. Why? because the Faith itself is an institution. Just like the Dosh khaleen are separate from the Great Stallion.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 05:15, July 31, 2012 (UTC)
- Which is why the page on "the Faith of the Seven" talks about both the institution and the belief system. There isn't enough information to justify making so many subdivisions. The exception is that we need to rely on TV show screenshots, which need a lot more space, which may require separate pages. I.e. I hope a later episode will show us the inside of a Sept, with more artwork of the Seven and such. I'm going to try out merging "the Seven", though now that I look at it, I'm not sure if a gallery would work...--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:33, July 31, 2012 (UTC)
David J. Peterson said that the Dothraki are not polytheistic. When the term "henocentrism" was brought up, he said he felt it fit them perfectly. Henocentrism is an early form of monotheism, which still acknowledges that other gods may exist, but a group only worships one god who is better than any other gods. Thus I think we can conclude with "Monotheistic (henocentric)". Thus the "Dothraki religion" page should be deleted, as I have folded all other information into this article on the Great Stallion, as per standards we used for "the Drowned God" and other religions.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:36, February 8, 2013 (UTC)