Summary revealed —"Plot" section must be created
The Summary of the first three episodes has been released. The page is blocked, for me at least, so they should be added by whoever can do it:
" Arya arrives in Braavos. Pod and Brienne run into trouble on the road. Cersei fears for her daughter’s safety in Dorne as Ellaria Sand seeks revenge for Oberyn’s death. Stannis tempts Jon. An adviser tempts Dany."
—ArticXiongmao (talk) 18:49, March 7, 2015 (UTC)
Episode picture
Is this just a stand-in picture? I think picture of High Sparrow would be more appropriate. --Gladiatus (talk) 11:50, April 21, 2015 (UTC)
Sansa's storyline - full spoilers
Okay, while not watching them, I read a transcript of the future episodes from screeners, through episode 4.
Yes, Littlefinger's plan is to marry Sansa to Ramsay, condensing the general idea from the novels that "Littlefinger enters Sansa in a marriage alliance to retake the North" - though in the novels, it's a marriage to Robin Arryn's cousin and heir Harry, to use the Vale's full-strength armies to take out the Boltons - at which point he'd be an open enemy of the Lannisters, but he considers them a spent force at this point. Stannis never enters into his equations.
From what I've seen in the transcripts, Littlefinger's reasoning in the TV version is:
1 - He expects Stannis to defeat the Boltons. Stupid line that "he has a bigger army" (no he doesn't, in fact even the TV version stresses he doesn't have enough men)...though the wording is bad, the broad point stands that "the other Northern Houses are chafing under the Boltons and would avenge the Starks by joining Stannis against the Boltons at the first chance they got" - also says Stannis is one of the best military commanders in Westeros. So, fine, point stands, he surmises that Stannis will probably win, the Boltons can't hold the North for long when everyone hates them.
If Stannis defeats the Boltons, Sansa will be there to be made the new Stark rulers of Winterfell - ...and apparently still be loyal to Littlefinger? (granted, his book plan was much the same: give Sansa an army to liberate the North, then hope she doesn't turn on him....but the TV version has no Vale army holding the North, nominally in her name but really with Littlefinger).
2 - Sansa specifically asks what will happen if either Stannis is defeated by the Boltons, or, if he doesn't march on Winterfell but just drags it out through fighting in the countryside, and the Boltons still hold Winterfell.
Littlefinger's answer is that if Sansa is married to Ramsay, she can manipulate and undermine the Boltons from within (much as Margaery is doing with Tommen to the Lannisters). If the fighting in the North drags on for a long time, she can help Stannis by undermining the Boltons from within. If Stannis is killed, she's still in a position to continue to undermine the Boltons in other, new plans.
This raises the question: why the heck wouldn't they wait until after the battle for Winterfell is decided? And Stannis is either victorious or dead?
...okay, I can kind of see the logic that the Boltons are desperate for an alliance to secure the North now with the threat of Stannis, but if Stannis is dead, after that they won't be as desperate for an alliance, so they would only risk angering the Lannisters due to the threat of Stannis. Fair enough.
Why would Littlefinger risk angering the Lannisters? Well, even in the novels, this is going to be the point when he turns on them - I mean, sending Vale armies into the North? He says he thinks the Lannisters are a spent force by this point. So fair enough. In either one, this is the point when he's turning on the Lannisters. Meanwhile, even in the novels, Barbary Ryswell points out that she thinks that the Boltons are trying to distance themselves from the Lannisters just as the Lannisters are trying to throw the Freys and Boltons under the bus (each of these three groups wants to blame the others for the Red Wedding, which as Tyrion warned was seen as utterly dishonorable and led to bad political fallout). So Bolton isn't exactly a loyal lackey of the Lannisters either. And he's desperate to shore up support against Stannis. Fair enough.
So Littlefinger's strategy in the TV series is:
- 1 - He thinks Stannis will probably win, in which case Sansa gets made ruler of Winterfell and the North after he kills the Boltons (which isn't *that* different from his book plan, though in the books she would be reliant upon Littlefinger's Vale army...or so he thinks...)
- 2 - There is still a significant chance that Stannis might be killed and the Boltons will win, in which case, Sansa is a valuable tool to undermine the Boltons from within - but the Boltons would only be desperate enough to anger the Lannisters as long as Stannis is still alive, which is why he'd have to marry her to the Boltons before Stannis marches against Winterfell, and not just wait to see who wins.
...fair enough.
Yet this still leaves unresolved questions about this drastic condensation:
1 - Stannis wants to kills Littlefinger at this point in the novels. He's accurately surmised Littlefinger must have had a key role in betraying Robert and stealing Stannis's throne, and Stannis was one of the few men Littlefinger could never manipulate - Stannis loathed him, he recognized him as the amoral whore-monger and political manipulator that he is (Stannis is more of a straightforward guy and loathes politicians in general, but Littlefinger epitomized this more than any of the others). In the novels he even points out how Janos was bribed and bought by Littlefinger despite his warnings to Robert.
So, fundamentally, what does Littlefinger gain by assuming Stannis will win? Stannis is one of the men he'd rather kill because he knows he can't manipulate him. Maybe he thinks Stannis will be desperate for the Vale's unbloodied armies.
2 - Not from a plot logic point but from a thematic point...how the hell does this fit Sansa's character arc?
We haven't seen enough yet to judge. My hope against all hope is that....well you see, in the novels, a point with Sansa is that she's hardened, she's watching Littlefinger having men killed and assassinated in the Vale, in fact he's admitting to her in private things like that he's supporting younger brothers to kill older brothers so they'll be allied lords, etc. He'a also basically admitted to her that he's just waiting for Sweetrobin to die so Harry can take over (to the point that it is strongly implied that he is having Sweetrobin slowly poisoned to death by giving him too much of his seizure medication).
So they can't have Sansa go back to being a whimpering prisoner and victim.
What they can do to still make it fit is to basically transpose Littlefinger with Ramsay: have Sansa sit back and not help people that Ramsay is torturing - instead of sitting back and not helping people she knows Littlefinger is going to kill - because she's skilled enough at intrigue now to know she needs to bide her time.
That's the right way to do it, "condensing" it in a way that is thematically appropriate to the novels, but we shall see. And I still don't know how to reconcile that Littlefinger would ever support a scenario in which Stannis is left alive.
Lastly, addendum to the last point, I really hope they bring up something like...Roose warned Ramsay that he can't harm Sansa, so he doesn't lay a finger on her...but instead, he tortures servant girls, like a whipping boy. "Do what I say or I'll flay another servant girl" etc. And TV Sansa can't help them just as book Sansa cannot save Sweetrobin (presumably). And my hope of hopes is that Ramsay tries to psychologically torture Sansa by physically torturing none other than Jeyne Poole, who has been his prisoner this entire time, off screen. But Sansa stoically bides her time, the icy determination she showed Littlefinger in the novels. --- is "Winterfell worker" a casting call code-name for Jeyne Poole?
Of course the other problem is...how could Littlefinger not have heard what a monster Ramsay is? I suppose even in the novels it's a point that Roose is furious at Ramsay for being stupid enough to torture Fake Arya within earshot of all the Northern lords at a feast in the same castle. So giving Sansa to Roose? Fine, he's calculating enough to realize she's a game piece he cannot afford to harm. But it's the same with how Joffrey was stupid enough to kill valuable hostages. Well, same problem in books; Ramsay's stupid enough to hurt Fake Arya even if he needs her.
Weird that Littlefinger would risk sending such a valuable piece as Sansa away, but then again it's risky to put her in Harry's possession, so fine, riskier the road, greater the profit. Not implausible, but still straining credibility. But in the interests of not having an emotional outburst of fan rage...okay, he's taking a risk.
So their plot logic isn't actually the worst, but leaves two massive questions:
1 - Why the heck would Littlefinger hope for a scenario in which Stannis wins in the North? Stannis hates Littlefinger.
2 - ...how do they thematically keep Sansa's character arc intact? There is a way to do it - just transpose "Sansa is hardened enough now to watch her captor kill other people" and transfer that from book-Littlefinger to TV-Ramsay.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:28, April 24, 2015 (UTC)
Littlefinger's plan is stupid for following reasons:
1 - Stannis will execute him if he wins.
2 - Sansa is by no means capable of manipulating Boltons
--Gladiatus (talk) 11:11, April 24, 2015 (UTC)
The Dragon Demands:
1. That hatred has not been established in the TV show. Also, it wouldn't come into play: Littlefinger won't be in Winterfell by then. He's a "behind the curtain" kind of guy, anyway.
2. Your suggestion seems the most likely. Have some faith. They've been planning this for a while, if the Myranda character is anything to go by. Obviously, she's not Myranda Royce, but she will fill a similar role. TWOW Alayne I is quite ominous about Myranda's envy of Sansa for being bethrothed to the unlikely heir that is Harry, who she loves; Psycho|Myranda in the TV show is in a similar position, except it's technically jelaousy, not envy; she's jealous that Sansa is getting her boyfriend Ramsay away from her.
Gladiatus:
1. Littlefinger will be long gone by the time Stannis arrives. Also, no antagonism between them has been established in the TV show, which is what we're discussing.
2. Sansa has survived years by tiptoeing around and gently manipulating Westeros's most powerful psychopath. She can handle it. Especially Show|Sansa.
Great analysis, btw, TTD. Very reasonable. The only real question is: why go to Winterfell before Stannis takes Winterfell? Hopefully the show answers that question, though with Littlefinger gone by episode four it seems rather unlikely. Maybe he discusses it with Olenna, in their heavily publiziced scene together, in his trashed brothel (it's been seen in trailers and TV spots.) That'd be nice. Maybe that's also why he doesn't fear the Lannister; his alliance with the Tyrells includes protecting Sansa against the Lannisters. Hopefully it will be brought up. My tentative answer to the question of why not go before? Leverage. Somehow, Sansa will have to fuck with the Boltons from within (a la Manderly) and take the castle from them, with the help of the Vale knights and the Northern Lords and subjects in the castle, while the Boltons go outside to battle Stannis. So when Stannis comes, Sansa will already have the castle, and Stannis will have a barely surviving army after the snowstorms and the battle in the snow, so he'll have to accept whatever she demands. Hopefully it makes that much sense. —ArticXiongmao (talk) 11:35, April 24, 2015 (UTC)
- I enjoyed reading this; nicely reasoned, and I agree with pretty much everything you've said. I'm now curious to know your thoughts on Cersei's High Sparrow/Faith Militant shenanigans, which I felt was a far more illogical series of changes.--The White Winged Fury 13:09, April 24, 2015 (UTC)
- All the changes seem to be geared towards a more pronounced Cersei vs Margaery narative and towards Cersei having a more proactive role in events (she's still digging her own grave; but at least it looks like she's doing things on purpose, such as the rise of the High Sparrow, which she engineers in the show). A side effect of this is that the High Sparrow looks a bit naive at the start (though, considering where this storyline ends up, I'm sure this will be flipped by the end), and that the rise of the Sparrows happens a bit too suddenly. But I didn't find it particularly illogical, just weirdly paced (maybe because of expectations from the books.) How exactly did you find it illogical?
- All the changes in King's Landing are kind of a remix of the books, changing things up only in chronology and details. Cersei still gets rid of the High Septon, though by imprisoning him for indecency (in order to appease the Sparrows and fool the High Sparrow), instead of killing him; in the books, a prominent Septon from the Most Devout who was just about to be elected High Septon is followed to a brothel by the Sparrows, dragged naked into the streets and shamed, something that happens earlier to the High Septon himself in the show, a logical amalgamation; curiously, Cersei seeks the High Sparrow in a much more duplicitous mood instead of being so furious (feigning piety); Cersei still consigns Mace Tyrell to a mission away from King's Landing in order to get rid of him for a while, so that she can scheme against the Tyrells more freely, except he is sent to Braavos in Harys Swyft's role instead of to take Storm's End; Cersei still conspires to get rid of Loras, though she does it more directly through the High Sparrow, instead of sending him away to Dragonstone hoping he will die; and curiously, Cersei is the one who brings up the "holy men and women being murdered and raped" and needing protection, and the reinstatement of the Faith Militant, again making her more proactive and kinda wiser than in the books, but still digging her own grave. —ArticXiongmao (talk) 13:48, April 24, 2015 (UTC)
- My main gripe is that all of her plotting in this regard seems to be aimed purely at getting out of her marriage to Loras - I found this illogical seeing as there's nothing and no one forcing her to marry him anymore. Although maybe that was just my interpretion. Having the High Septon thrown in the Black Cells for visiting a brothel (something which is perfectly legal) was also annoying, as was Cersei personally appointing the High Sparrow to the highest office of the Faith (something which she has no control over). Of course, the Most Devout may not exist in the TV continuity. And, yes, as you said the pacing was weird - I found it very rushed. I did enjoy Jonathan Pryce, though! I think the High Sparrow in the show comes across as a lot more grounded and down to earth than the book version, who is very preachy nd self-righteous. I was dissapointed by how easily Loras was restrained as well... couldn't his squire have just chucked his sword back to him? The Sparrows only wear robes, and are armed with wooden clubs!--The White Winged Fury 16:07, April 24, 2015 (UTC)
- It was already established in 5x01 that Cersei doesn't have to marry Loras anymore. That's not why she did it. She's leaving Margaery without her allies, just as in the books (by sending Mace away for a bit, and sending Loras to die.) —ArticXiongmao (talk) 16:19, April 24, 2015 (UTC)
- Sansa's so called manipulation of Joffrey won't work against Ramsay or especially Roose. Is it okay if I say here that Littlefinger leaves and is King's Landing by mid-season? We've known this since autumn and it says spoilers. LF was going to stay at the Winterfell, had Cersei not called her back. He would've been there when Stannis would win. I don't think Roose will let him back in after he leaves. Also, while there is no antagonism between Stannis and Littlefinger, it's pretty clear that Stannis would execute him. But we'll have to see how it goes. I agree, it would have been so much smarter to go to Winterfell after whoever has won. --Gladiatus (talk) 16:29, April 24, 2015 (UTC)
GRRM just released an excerpt from the upcoming Book VI "Winds of Winter" in early April, in which Sansa is betrothed to Harold Hardyng to inherit the Vale when Robin/Robert dies, I wonder how they're going to do that now... DRAEVAN13 14:12, April 24, 2015 (UTC)
" why go to Winterfell before Stannis takes Winterfell?" -- Oh, I explained that. Littlefinger is directly asked this and he basically says that while he would bet that Stannis will win, there is some chance he will lose, and the Boltons would remain in control. The only reason the Boltons are willing to risk angering the Lannisters by marrying Sansa is because they are afraid of Stannis, that other Northern lords will rally to him to get revenge on the Boltons for betraying the Starks. If Littlefinger waits too long, and Stannis actually loses (battles are unpredictable, he might always get killed by a stray arrow), afterwards the Boltons won't be as open to marrying Sansa as they were before, because their enemies in the North will have been crushed. Well, you'd still think they'd jump at the chance to marry the last Stark, but they'd be less desperate, less willing to anger the Lannisters. MOREOVER, Littlefinger hopes that Sansa can undermine the Boltons from within to actively aid Stannis's victory.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:26, April 24, 2015 (UTC)
The High Sparrow thing is separate, but I will say it's not so much of a problem: more of a mish-mash of many different plotlines in the novels. Cersei stupidly trying to make new "allies" who she doesn't actually judge very well when she hands power to them. In the novels, it's that they owe money to the Faith, and they'll only forgive the debt in return for armies. At the same time, in other subplots...recall how Cersei stupidly puts Aurane Waters in command of her new fleet of ships (which she paid for on credit during a banking crisis!)...basically just because she thought he'd be a loyal lackey. So if they wanted to simplify the debt crisis (I think) to just the Iron Bank....fair enough. The High Sparrow is then sort of combined with the Aurane Waters subplot. I mean we saw this last episode with Kevan at the Small Council: they didn't introduce Rosby and the others, but it is thematically similar to what happened in the novels, just condensed a bit. I don't mind.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:31, April 24, 2015 (UTC)
Well Draevan13, we already new about the Harry the Heir plan since the end of A Feast for Crows...though I suspect GRRM put out that sample chapter to passive-aggressively highlight in the public consciousness that Sansa's storyline is diverging.
As for Loras...from what I read in the transcripts, we don't know how important that is going to be, or if it was just Cersei screwing with them a bit...okay, might as well ask so we can plan in advance: anyone know what the hell happens to Loras in episode 5?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:34, April 24, 2015 (UTC)
Arrested for his sexuality, I'd believe? Or then it is episode 6. --Gladiatus (talk) 17:37, April 24, 2015 (UTC)
- That in episode four. We don't know anything more at this point.--The White Winged Fury 18:07, April 24, 2015 (UTC)
- Actually we know a fair bit. In one of the trailers, you can see the following setup: a room that's not in the Red Keep, with the same style as the Great Sept; seated on one side are Olenna, Margaery, Tommen and Cersei (mere guests for the proceeding); on the other side, there is Olyvar, who has had recent sex with Loras (and Margaery told Loras to be more discreet, which is obvious setup); then there's a scruffy-looking Loras, angrily launching at Olyvar, who is apparently giving testimony (a sort of blue bard, except in this case the testimony is true, unless he makes other stuff up); and finally, there's the High Sparrow, between them all, holding the proceedings. So, Loras will be judged for his "indecent" (puah) acts, with Olyvar giving testimony. —ArticXiongmao (talk) 22:32, April 24, 2015 (UTC)
Will we use this picture of LF and Sansa after the episode has aired, or will we change it to picture of High Sparrow? --Gladiatus (talk) 18:49, April 24, 2015 (UTC)