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House Frey members in the TV continuityEdit

The TV series almost certainly condensed the relationships of some of the Freys from the books. We knew they wouldn't introduce all of his two dozen children, but presumably they were "in the background" off-screen. It is as yet unknown if the TV series continuity makes outright alterations to the relationships of named characters (nor why, exactly, some of the Frey girls in "The Rains of Castamere" had their names changed). We should adopt a "wait and see" attitude until we have more information (hopefully an updated Season 4 Viewer's Guide).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:46, April 1, 2014 (UTC)

Okay the time has come to attempt making a breakdown of this for the TV continuity. Season 4 didn't reveal any other Freys (only Fat Walda even appeared, but she was already mentioned in Season 3).

Any decisions we make will only be a makeshift, functional conclusion but subject to change until we get confirmation from any of the writers.

For example we have no idea if even Lame Lothar has the same mother as he does in the books. They're going to condense a lot with the Freys.

In the books, all known Freys in the War of the Five Kings era are descendants of Walder (there are no uncles or cousins mentioned.

Lord Walder had seven wives before Joyeuse (who is still alive in the books), and he has twenty-nine trueborn children - 22 sons and 7 daughters. Not all of them are major characters. His 29 children in turn have numerous other descendants. Plus there are several bastard children who get passing mention.

  • Perra Royce - 1st wife - 3 sons, 1 daughter, all have descendants
  • Cyrenna Swann - 2nd wife - 2 sons: Jared and Septon Luceon.
  • Amarei Crakehall - 3rd wife - 6 sons, 1 daughter
  • Alyssa Blackwood - 4th wife - 3 sons, 2 daughters

His fifth wife, Sarya Whent, gave him no children.

  • Bethany Rosby - 6th wife - 4 sons, 1 daughter
  • Annara Farring - 7th wife - 4 sons, 2 daughters

A rule of thumb is that after the fourth wife, Walder's descendants are not particularly hostile to the Starks. well, Bethany Robsy's children were all fairly loyal and honorable (Well, Benfrey fought the Starks at the Red Wedding and died of injuries he took there, but Perwyn and Olyvar were loyal enough to Robb that they were sent away out of fear they'd join their side. Nothing known about Willamen, and Roslin was forced to go through with it). Meanwhile, Anna Farring's children are all too young (16 and under) to take part in any real political deicisions or fight. Her children are Arwyn, Wenel, Colmar, Waltyr, Elmar, and Shirei.

But I digress...

Freys established within the TV continuity:

In Season 1's "Baelor", we see Walder, Joyeuse, Stevron, and a bastard son (we're debating which one). ALSO in this episode they prominently mention that Olyvar will be Robb's squire and "Waldron" will marry Arya (who was called "Elmar" in the books).

The Season 3 introduced Lame Lothar and "Black Walder" (more on that later), along with Roslin. Fat Walda was mentioned in the same episode and later appeared in Season 4.

The only other point at which named Freys are stated is in the scene when Walder makes Robb apologize to his female descendants who might have been up for the marriage-alliance he backed out of: several of these girls were given different names than in the books.

All the more bizarre because they're not really characters in the books, just names and lineages...so why change them?

In the book version, the girls were:

  • Arwyn (daughter)
  • Gatehouse Ami (granddaughter)
  • Little Cersei Frey (a 7 year old, called Little Bee because her mother is from House Beesbury)
  • Tyta, a daughter.
  • another Walda
  • Alyx
  • Merissa
  • Shirei (daughter)
  • Merry
  • Walda, a granddaughter (Fat Walda?)
  • Marianne Vance (great-granddaughter)
  • Serra and Sarra.

In total, 13 girls are mentioned in this scene.

We're going to assume that his "granddaughter Walda" was Fat Walda (there are four other Frey girls named Walda, but only two are Walder's granddaughters: Fat Walda and Lame Lothar's five year old daughter, who I think we can rule out).

The TV version, meanwhile, only mentioned 12 names in "The Rains of Castamere", and not all of them are from the books.

6 names were retained from the books into the TV series. They are, along with their TV descriptions:

  • Serra and Sarra - granddaughters, twins
  • Marianne - granddaughter (Marianne Vance in the books was a great-granddaughter)
  • Merry - granddaughter (short for "Merianne" in the books)
  • Shirei - youngest daughter
  • Fat Walda was also mentioned in the same episode, and identified as a granddaughter as she was in the books (and I believe that the granddaughter named Walda which Walder mentions in his list in the books was intended to be Fat Walda, because the only other "granddaughter Walda" is a five year old).

7 names were invented for the TV series. Along with their descriptions, they are:

  • Arwaya - daughter
  • Walda - daughter
  • Derwa - daughter
  • Waldra - daughter
  • Janeya and Neyela - eldest granddaughters
  • Freya - granddaughter

6 plus 7 equals 13 in the TV version, and there were 13 in the listing scene with Walder in the books (as I explained, the book list had 13 names and included Fat Walda, the TV version had 12 names and didn't include Fat Walda...but then she was mentioned a few scenes later anyway).

So are the 7 new Frey girls named in "The Rains of Castamere" meant to be entirely new characters, or simply renamed characters?

Not mentioned in TV show:

  • Arwyn (daughter)
  • Little Cersei Frey (a 7 year old, called Little Bee because her mother is from House Beesbury)
  • Tyta, a daughter.
  • another Walda (of which there are four)
  • Alyx (granddaughter)
  • Gatehouse Ami (granddaughter, Fat Walda's sister)
  • Marissa (granddaughter, younger sister of Fat Walda and Ami)

I can see why they'd leave out Little Cersei - they actively avoid giving characters similar names, even though Martin did this on purpose because "it's against the constraints of writing" -- many of the Freys have named their children after famous people as a way of sucking up to the Great Houses (there's a Tywin Frey, Cersei Frey, and a Rhaegar Frey).

"Arwyn" may have sounded too much like Tolkien's "Arwen" (I think it was meant to), and I suspect that "Arwaya" may be a renamed version of that character.

I have no idea why these other ones were renamed. Maybe Gatehouse Ami was left out so they can introduce her later (she isn't just a name but actually does stuff in the story).

I have no idea how to handle these 7 new girls.

Also, Marianne Vance was a great-granddaughter, not a granddaughter.

For now, at least, these girls were all such minor characters that I'm not going to put them into a TV version of the Frey family tree.

...meanwhile, we've got Olyvar (son of 6th wife in the books) and Waldron/Elmar (son of 7th wife in the books) but no idea how they might fit into an altered tree.

We even see Roslin, daughter of his 6th wife.

Lame Lothar was son of his 4th wife.

Stevron was son of his 1st wife.

So theoretically, assuming he doesn't have fewer wives in the TV version, that accounts for wives 1, 4, 6, and 7 (5 had no children). As for wives two and three, Fat Walda is a granddaughter through his son Merrett, who was from his third wife.

(sigh) I don't know.

A separate issue we may clear up is that the TV version is now calling him "Black Walder Rivers", but that's a specific separate issue (given that bastard children aren't an inherent part of the "main" family tree...)

ConclusionsEdit

Anyone else have ideas on how to incorporate all of this?

I think the minor Frey girls, Olyvar, and Elmar/Waldron are too insignificant to include in a family tree anyway (similarly, I haven't included some minor Lannister cousins, albeit that's because we don't even know what their "official" degree of relationship is).

So Freys who actually appear descended from Walder include Stevron, Roslin, Lame Lothar, Fat Walda, and "Black Walder".

Which is pretty much what the HBO Viewer's Guide lists (though they don't include Stevron; he died "off screen" at the Battle of Oxcross, but was an important enough book character to include).

They just leave Fat Walda freefloading - I think we might as well put in "Merrett Frey" as a placeholder name until proven otherwise...

It's weird to show "seven wives" plus a milkmaid, so I'm going to condense this into "7 wives, and numerous mistresses".

Well...my current version includes Olyvar and Waldron, might as well leave them in there given that they are direct sons and not grandsons (which would be more difficult because we need an intervening generation).

This leads to the separate issue of "Black Walder" and the bastard son from Season 1. But I'll deal with that in a separate heading...--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:14, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

Okay I've updated the House Frey family tree. It excludes the minor Frey girls seen only in "The Rains of Castamere"; it also excludes Olyvar and Elmar/Waldron because they're only mentioned once in Season 1 and haven't been cast -- the goal is for ease of use for people to find characters who do appear, and the tree was getting too wide.

Moreover I've removed the speculated Freys such as making Merrett Frey so we can have him as the father of Fat Walda. Now, "Numerous Sons and daughters" fills that role, and just forks off between "Fat Walda" and "Various Grandsons and Granddaughters".

Also I moved things around so we now have "Black Walder Rivers" and Ryger Rivers (removing the need for Ryger Rivers). We'll update this in Season 5 if more Freys are introduced.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:14, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

Lord Paramount of the Trident Edit

I think the time has come to deal with this. Season 4 has passed without any mention of Baelish being the new Lord Paramount of the Trident, and if I'm honest, I doubt there ever will be. On the other hand, we have an official source (The Viewer's Guide) that says Walder Frey is now the liege lord of the Riverlands; and this is supported by the farmer's dialogue in "Breaker of Chains". Yes, the guide sometimes misprints things, but it remains an official source. Are we really going to leave incorrect information on this wiki for another year in the vain hope that Season 5 changes this, when every indication so far suggests otherwise? I'm not sure I would be comfortable with that.--The-Boy 15:39, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion, it would be just as incorrect to say that Walder is Paramount due to the lack of clarity. I believe the viewers guide probably meant that he assumed the title of Lord of Riverrun, instead of the Riverlands but it's all conjecture at this point. I think the best solution would just be to focus on the lack of clarity in who the Lord Paramount actually is, as though in name it's Baelish there isn't really one that we know of in practice. It could be Blackfish for all we know. Jack First of His Name (talk) 17:44, July 6, 2014 (UTC)
Well, technically the Tullys abdicated the title when they rebelled against the Iron Throne...--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:51, July 6, 2014 (UTC)
Has there been a consensus on this issue?--Ser Patrek (talk) 13:08, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

I thought there had been since July 24th: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:GoTWiki_Small_Council_meeting_2:_Freys_or_Baelish_rule_the_Riverlands%3F?t=20140724203659

The past week I was confused why you hadn't acted on the vote, after asking about the issue.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:07, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

I'm happy to proceed, but I just wanted to make sure we were in agreement, as Buffy and yourself were undecided.--Ser Patrek (talk) 19:10, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

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