Talk:House Tully

Can someone make a spoiler warning in the "See Also" section? Just looked up House Tully on A Song of Ice and Fire and saw some spoilers from the 3th and 4th book -- Aetherium (talk) 17:56, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

Is Lysa Arryn, the heir?

As Catelyn Stark was the elder Tully sister, surely that would make Bran or Sansa Stark the heir (depending on whether Bran is disqualified for being legally dead), not Lysa Arryn. Alexsau1991 ^{(talk page)} File:Goddammit.svg 22:19, July 15, 2013 (UTC)

Mild spoilers here, very mild, but Brynden "The Blackfish" Tully remains free. He wasn't even at the Red Wedding in the books, as Robb left him at Riverrun to guard the southern front along the line of the Red Fork. With Edmure captured, Brynden is the functional current leader of House Tully and Riverrun is besieged. We haven't had much follow-through on this in the TV show in the few moments at the Small Council in the last episode, but in the books they make it clear: the Riverlords are so overwhelmed by the Lannister/Tyrell alliance, now that their Northern allies have been destroyed, that they have no hope for victory: no natural choke points, they're the wide-open Riverlands. And they were already losing even before the Northerners were crushed. You have to remember that the *Northern* army was destroyed at the Red Wedding, the Riverlands Houses that subsequently allied with them weren't destroyed. But they have no hope of victory now, didn't even have much before the Red Wedding, so Tywin makes it a point to offer them peace on generous terms if they will surrender. Joffrey thinks that a "true king" is ruthless (his usual psychotic rant demonstrating that he has no concept of politics). Tywin says he was ruthless when he had to be, but now that Lannister victory seems inevitable they should accept their surrender: "do what you can to knock a man down, but once he's on his knees, offer him a hand back up, otherwise no one will ever bend the knee to you again". However, at the same meeting (immediately post-Red Wedding) Tywin points out that for the sake of pride, Riverrun and Raventree Hall will not surrender (both are north of the Red Fork and a bit more defensible). Anyway, the Siege of Riverrun is a major plotline of the fourth novel....and book 3 is so long that they split it in half to make Season 3 and Season 4, so Season 4 will still be the second half of book 3. The Siege of Riverrun will last all of Season 4 and possibly until the end of Season 5. Brynden's garrison at Riverrun has no hope of victory, they'd just rather die than surrender.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:27, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

Complicating matters is that when Robb seceded the North and Riverlands from the Iron Throne, this split family loyalties, as Lysa obstinately remained neutral in the war. The rule is that a younger brother - Hoster's younger brother Brynden - will only inherit if all of the older brother's children are dead. Actually, it's if the *bloodline* of the older brother and his children is exhausted. Thus if the older brother has a grandson, that grandson still inherits before his younger brother.

Thus the original House Tully line of succession was Hoster, Edmure, Catelyn, All of Catelyn's Children, Lysa, Any of Lysa's Children, and then Brynden. Edmure is still alive he's just captured, complicating matters. But who is Edmure's heir now that Catelyn is dead?

Nevermind: Officially, a younger sibling (Lysa) only inherits after all of their older sibling's (Catelyn's) children are dead. Thus Lysa would never be the "heir to Riverrun" ahead of Catelyn's children. Among the Stark children, the original order was Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya. Robb is now dead and his desecrated corpse is rotting at the Twins. Legally Bran is now lord of House Stark and heir of House Tully...but everyone thinks he's dead. They also think Rickon is dead. This leaves Sansa as current heiress of the North, and heir-apparent to Edmure Tully. (Meanwhile, everyone assumes Arya is dead because they haven't seen her in a long time, but functionally assume she is dead, and in any case, Sansa was always ahead of her in line of succession). --The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:27, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

That is right.  The official heir presumptive is Bran, but because he and Rickon are thought  to be dead, it's Sansa.  This is interesting in that, should something happen to Edmure,  the Lannisters would have direct control over the Riverlands in addition to Winterfell through Sansa.  TheUnknown285 (talk) 05:51, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

To illustrate, here would be the apparent line of succession as of the beginning of the series. Characters who are now dead have names that have been struck through.  The numbers represent their current standing in the line of succession with the current lord at number one:

• Unknown Lord Tully

• • Hoster Tully

• • • Edmure Tully (1)
    • Catelyn Stark

• • • • Robb Stark
      • Bran Stark (2)
      • Rickon Stark (3)
      • Sansa Stark (4)
      • Arya Stark (5)
    • Lysa Arryn (6)
      • Robin Arryn (7)
  • Brynden Tully (8)

--TheUnknown285 (talk) 05:51, August 9, 2013 (UTC)