Robb & Jon's ages? Edit
Is Robb older than Jon? Jon was conceived during Robert's Rebellion. I don't remember much about Eddard and Catelyn’s wedding. They were betrothed before the war, gaining the loyalty of House Tully. However, were they married before the war or after? Did they consummate their marriage right away if they were married before the war (they had no bedding ceremony)? Seems quite risky to marry a daughter to someone who might be dead in a month. 18.104.22.168 15:02, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
- Jon is believed to be slightly younger than Robb, by a matter of months. They're both listed as the same numeric age. Dangerous to marry...that was the whole point; to secure the alliance for the war, Eddard married Catelyn and Jon Arryn married Lysa.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:37, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
*Potential Spoilers* Parentage Edit
Well some people just casually watch the show and since there haven't been too many hints on the TV show, a LOT of people won't have a clue who his mother is, and besides noting any clues that the TV show has shown, we should really try not to ruin this.
However, you've almost certainly ruined it for anyone reading this who didn't already know it, so congratulations. I'm not going to do it, but I hope an admin deletes this. Son Of Fire (talk) 07:44, December 24, 2014 (UTC)
Well its not really a spoiler, i mean technically its theorizing and speculation on a well-known fact, there are show-only viewers who have figured it out. I would say there definitely have been clues in the show all in the first season, they coached Sean Bean in the scene when Jon departs, the "Next time we meet, we'll discuss your mother" and how torn up he was. we see his hesitance to kill a Targaryen child with Dany and see firthand how Robert would react. and in season 4 as well, Oberyn's hints about Rhaegar and his 'loving another'. We knew he and Lyanna took off, and that honorable Ned would never have a bastard. I would say a LOT of people DO have a clue. Its not a well-kept secret a good 90% of the viewership and obviously all the book-readers know this, its not really 'ruining' anything, people wonder who it is, consolidating hints and theories into one place isn't a stretch. The westeros wiki lists the other possibilities as well, such as Ashara Dayne, Wylla etc. to make it less blatant, so if that is doable i say that would be adequate. ````
I don't mean to come off mean but I think you're dead wrong. I've not read the books but I'm pretty sure it hasn't even been revealed there yet, I don't think ALL book readers know and CERTAINLY not 90% of TV viewers. I'd put the number closer to 5%. I don't think you understand just how many people watch the show for its enjoyment, and then forget about it until the next episode. Most people.
Of course the admins could have a different opinion and that's fine, but I don't think this Wiki needs to do any more than provide innocent and explicitly stated canonical facts and detail what happens in each episode and provide small book information (along with character and location bios). If I were in charge I wouldn't even put a quote from, for example, Jon as that's a spoiler because it lets me know he's still alive. I'd ban the person who ever put that little equation on here as although you may think you're being subtle, it's really obvious what and whom you're talking about. Just from seeing that I managed to work out everything with Lyanna and I was incredibly upset and it completely ruined it for me.
I do understand you don't mean to troll or vandalise, but anything that has not been revealed in the show, even theories, have no business being on a Wiki for the show. Son Of Fire (talk) 04:46, December 25, 2014 (UTC)
I think Son Of Fire has a good point, but unfortunately the Jon Snow wikia article itself fails to abide by the principle that it should restrict itself to what the tv series has revealed. That is, the article says Jon is Ned Stark's son, even though the tv series has presented even less evidence that Jon is Ned's son than it has that Joffrey was the son of King Robert (which was false). The fact that nearly everyone in Westeros believes Jon is Ned's son isn't any more compelling evidence than the fact that nearly everyone in Westeros believed Joffrey was Robert's son. The main reason the article shouldn't say Jon is Ned's son is that Ned never called Jon his son, and no one who would have first-hand knowledge of Jon's parentage ever called Jon Ned's son. (Furthermore, nowhere in the book A Game of Thrones does Ned say Jon is his son, nor even think it. Nor does anyone say they remember Ned calling Jon his son.) All we know for sure is that Ned never corrected anyone who called Jon his son, which could easily be explained by fear of what would happen to Jon if Robert learned Jon was really the son of a Targaryen. If I may offer a wild speculation, perhaps the reason George R.R. Martin is taking so long to complete the book series is that he's dismayed that so many readers correctly guessed Jon's parents and is struggling to find an alternative that 'proves' those readers wrong yet is consistent with the published books. But that would be hard to do if three Targaryens will ultimately be needed to ride the three dragons. Direwolfen (talk) 17:07, April 8, 2015 (UTC)
The TV show has given such little attention to the question - NONE after Season 1 - that it's really their fault for not mentioning it more. In which case it isn't really our place to do so here -- at most, see the "Wylla" article.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:15, April 8, 2015 (UTC)
Glad an admin agrees with me on this. I get very annoyed when this issue is raised on the wiki as to me it is a no-brainer. The only information that should be shared on this wiki is what has been established on the TV show and draw comparisons from the books. I worked out the theory based on information from here, specifically the Rhaegar page. At it's present state (and other linked pages) are fine as they currently are. If anything I think we should remove information instead of add it. There is absolutely no chance I would have ever managed to work out the theory based on information from the show alone.
I usually gauge situations like this around what my show-only friends think. These people love the show, don't care about the books and are very intelligent in regards to shows and stories. None of them have ANY idea about who Jon's mother is and have never even thought that Ned might not be the father. And it's not like they don't think about it, I've had guesses from Melisandre to Cassana Baratheon. Based on information from the TV series ALONE, it is VERY difficult to come up with the popular "theory" that book readers have. It is this fact which gives me the opinion that it shoud be no where near this wiki, not even mentioned.
We should be left only with the information the TV show has provided, and only elaborate on this when further developments are made in the show. Again I must say many may disagree and I won't make a huge issue out of this, it's up to the powers that be, but less is more makes a lot of sense in this situation. - Son Of Fire (talk) 17:43, April 8, 2015 (UTC)
Again, I agree with Son Of Fire's principle, but not with Son Of Fire's conclusion that the article is okay. The information provided by the tv show is that the people of Westeros believe Jon is Ned's son, not that Jon is Ned's son. Thus it's wrong for the article to assert Jon is Ned's son. Perhaps the best way around this problem would be for the GoT wikia to post a prominent disclaimer somewhere that says all "facts" presented in the wikia are based on the beliefs of the fictional people and are thus subject to change. (If such a disclaimer already exists, perhaps it needs to be made more prominent.) Direwolfen (talk) 01:13, April 9, 2015 (UTC)
As of the most recent episode in the TV show, John Snow's parentage has been mostly confirmed. His mother was heavily implied to be Lyanna Stark, and it leads us to conclude that his father is Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, son of the mad king, who had been holding her "captive" at the time of John Snow's birth, and it is said that he had raped her. 09:33, June 27 (UTC)
Based on the newest HBO infographics found here (http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/got-connections-ned-promise-tower-of-joy-infographic#commenting=) it should be enough to prove entirely that that Rhaegar is indeed the father of Jon Snow. 22.214.171.124 07:02, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
Eye picture Edit
At first glance, that eye drawing/picture...I thought it was the Aeon Flux eye. lol http://www.chud.com/nextraimages/aeonflux1120804.gif QueenBuffy 01:34, April 17, 2015 (UTC)
Even without book knowledge, most viewers might believe he'll be brought to life by the Red Woman à la what Thoros did for Beric Dondarrion, but to come back from the dead, you have to be dead which he is until he isn't.WaitingForYou (talk) 02:55, June 15, 2015 (UTC)
- If they were planning on getting him back they wouldn't tell us.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 02:58, June 15, 2015 (UTC)
- Well thanks for ruining that for everyone who didn't know. I'm so done with this Wiki and book readers spoiling things they don't think are spoilers that TOTALLY FUCKING ARE. - Son Of Fire (talk) 04:43, June 15, 2015 (UTC)
- EDIT: Okay never mind. I thought what you were saying is that in the book he had already been brought back to life, but now I see the show and book are at the same point. My bad. And for you, anonymous editor, I wasn't talking about show spoilers, I always watch an episode before coming here. - Son Of Fire (talk) 05:16, June 15, 2015 (UTC)
- Honestly if you're stupid enough to visit a Wiki right after the season finale you deserve to be spoiled (or at least, I really don't feel sorry for you because you were just BEGGING for it to happen). 126.96.36.199 05:04, June 15, 2015 (UTC)
- Oh shiz... sorry. :S 188.8.131.52 05:36, June 15, 2015 (UTC)#
- My fault for not bothering to properly read what WaitingForYou said! - Son Of Fire (talk) 06:16, June 15, 2015 (UTC)
- I agree, he is dead. But he won't be dead for long. Jarmok (talk) 11:42, June 15, 2015 (UTC)
- If Melisandre brings him back. Remember, the "Last Kiss" isn't supposed to bring people back from the dead, just a rite for the departed performed at funerals. Even if Jon gets resurrected, no way will the Watch follow an undead leader :P DRAEVAN13 11:59, June 15, 2015 (UTC)
- That's the whole point, through death he is released from any obligations to the Watch. Jon is the heir to the throne being actually the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, he may be burned to prevent becoming a white walker and that would have the adverse effect being a dragon descendant.
- If Melisandre brings him back. Remember, the "Last Kiss" isn't supposed to bring people back from the dead, just a rite for the departed performed at funerals. Even if Jon gets resurrected, no way will the Watch follow an undead leader :P DRAEVAN13 11:59, June 15, 2015 (UTC)
Official website, confirmation of death. http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season-5/episode-10/people/61/jon-snow DRAEVAN13 03:29, June 15, 2015 (UTC)
That doesn't mean anything. Of course they will say he is dead after watching the episode. Otherwise there would be no element of surprise if he were to come back. The point is, we won't know for sure until next season or maybe not until Season 7 if he was ressurected or warged into Ghost or if he is just plain dead. Ragingturtle (talk) 15:09, June 15, 2015 (UTC)
- It could be he'll be back. But as far as his status on this Wiki is concerned, he's dead. DRAEVAN13 15:11, June 15, 2015 (UTC)
Viewer's guide =/= official statement.
Some poor retard removed the "last seen" and changed his status to "Unknown" without even putting the proper link to the "Uncertain" page. Could you please revert it to dead and put the last seen bit again and protect this page further so as to avoid vandalism and inaccuracy by idiots. Thanks184.108.40.206 12:57, July 1, 2015 (UTC)
I'm sort of a legitimacy noob, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but:
Extremely suspicious but nothing that concrete, but at least this topic should be open in the case that there is more solid evidence that he's returned. When can we confirm he's back anyway, when he's been spotted on set as Jon Snow or when the premiere/any subsequent episodes air? — Sharp Blades (talk) 22:45, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
I don't think we can confirm it unless it's actually officially stated by Kit or a senior member of Staff or when Season 6 actually comes out. Besides he looked pretty dead (for now at least) so let's try and avoid a pointless debate on changing the status. Gboy4 (talk) 23:44, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
Oh I wouldn't dare debate changing his status even if he was spotted on set in-outfit, I really just wanted his appearance in Belfast to be pointed out. — Sharp Blades (talk) 00:11, July 26, 2015 (UTC)
- No it's not confirmed yet, since he could just be playing his corpse in 1 episode like Charles Dance did for Tywin in season 5. DRAEVAN13
Why is Ygritte on the family tree? Just because they boned one time, that makes them family?220.127.116.11 07:28, December 1, 2015 (UTC)
Please add lithuanian language interwiki link in Jon Snow page [[lt:Jon Snow]]
Last Seen Edit
Considering his corpse is still a major character as of Season 6 thus far, shouldn't the "last seen" field on his infobox be removed until the circumstance comes in which his corpse makes its last appearance, such as Tywin's in "The Wars to Come"? (Of course I don't think that'll ever happen because I think he's coming back but that's irrelevant for now, anyway.) Salociin (talk) 22:16, April 26, 2016 (UTC)
Jon Snow Confirmed Alive! Edit
- It was obvious, Melisandre has disposed Stannis Baratheon because he was an illegitimate claimant to the throne in the favor of the lawful Targaryen heir, Jon Snow, the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark who have secretly married. His death was necessary to absolve him of his oath as the next episode is titled "Oathbreaker".
- Three dragons, three riders. The third Targaryen is Tyrion Lannister, the product of an affair between King Aerys II Targaryen and his mother. As in the case of his siblings his mother has died at birth and he has killed his loved one. His affinity for dragons is another big hint in that regard.
- I knew it too!!!! lol QueenBuffy 21:00, May 2, 2016 (UTC)
- So who brought him back ? The witch said the lord aka God resurrected him. So, the abrahemic God is now canon in Game of Thrones. Probably better, couldn't stand those pegan deitis.--18.104.22.168 08:41, May 9, 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, that's obvious. I am an atheist, so God is hardly a real world entity form me. I am still wondering if we ever see the true creator aka capital G od on the show. I mean, the show is awesome, but it really needs to go into another direction. Who is the Big Bad in Game of Thrones ? There are no villains, only some... well let's say less believable (as villains) humans. Villains who won't die from some lame sword blows. What about introducing big bad's like Sauron/ Lucifer/ Palpatine ? --22.214.171.124 03:39, May 15, 2016 (UTC)
R+L=J confirmed. He is officially not Ned Stark's actual son. He is Lyanna's son.
Lyanna being the mother of Jon confirmed Edit
Now it is officially confirmed that King Jon is the son of Lyanna Stark. It was also pretty obvious that Rhaegar is the father. You can hear Lyanna telling Ned that he has to protect Jon because Robert would kill him. Stop with the lies. He's not Ned's son. 126.96.36.199 02:30, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah. Unlock the pages, this is getting annoying.Werebereus - ಠ_ಠ 02:42, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- Yup. Not sure why these page locks keep happening. They should be unlocked right after the episode ends. For what it's worth, though, nothing has yet confirmed that Rhaegar Targaryen is the biological father. It's the most logical assumption, but it's not stated in the Viewer Guide or in the episode itself. In fact, in the Viewer Guide, it just has Lyanna Stark as his mother, and doesn't include Rhaegar. This is likely intentional. Reddyredcp (talk) 02:44, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- I've already left a message on Lyanna's page asking the admins to add details about her appearance. As for that baby being Jon, that may indeed be the case but it's still to early to say for sure as Ned and Lyanna were speaking in hushed tones. I want R+L=J to be true as much as anyone but we need to be patient. Shaneymike (talk) 03:16, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- You are the Troll here... Her what Lyanna told to Eddard: His name is... If Robert find out, he'll kill him, you know he will... You have to protect him. Promise me Ned ! So in your mind Robert kill baby's just for pleasure... No he kill them because they have Targaryen blood and because they are a threat to his rule... Maxattac (talk) 03:26, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- There is still no proof that the baby is Jon Snow. Still to early to jump to conclusions. We could not here her say the baby's name. There are a number of things Ned could have done with that child. Just because the scene jumped to Jon Snow after showing Lyanna, her baby and Ned together does not prove anything. It is simply a hint possibly a twist. If the creators wanted to full out confirm it they would not have kept hidden the baby's name.--The Dark Master (talk) 15:46, June 28, 2016 (UTC)
Jon Snow's father Edit
I foresee this becoming a great edit war, so we definitely need to resolve this. It's now clear that Lyanna Stark is the mother of Jon Snow. Unfortunately, the show - nor the Viewer Guide - does not state that Rhaegar Targaryen is his father. Is it obvious and clear? Is there tons of evidence pointing towards Rhaegar being his father, evidence even in this episode? Yes to both. But, it's still technically an assumption and speculation until it is confirmed. And I do have a bad feeling that the showrunners are going to stretch this out. How should we act? Should we jump the gun with what is technically an assumption, or should we wait until it is officially confirmed? Reddyredcp (talk) 04:44, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
It is clear who is father is. Jon Snow's father is Ron. Jon is the son of Ron. Just Ron. No last name.
- During the episode flashback, they spoke of Rhaegar. Sansa said "he raped her" and the then cinematic cut to Tower of Joy, which we know is where Rhaegar took her. I'm pretty sure Petyr says "how many people had to die because Rhaegar chose your aunts". That's confirmation enough for me. If that's not enough for you, the fact thats its an assumption or that it's tentative can always be mentioned.Werebereus - ಠ_ಠ 04:50, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
Protect this page! Edit
Never thought I would ask for this, but please protect this page for a couple of days, at least. Nothing but a constant edit war. All we know for sure is that he is Lyanna's son. It's reasonable to assume he is Rhaegar's as well, I suppose. There is nothing confirmed about his true name or any of this non-sense that trolls are adding. Reddyredcp (talk) 05:38, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- Agreed. Shaneymike (talk) 05:46, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
I understand locking the page, but could you at least change it so he is Lyanna's son and not Ned's? Whether you believe Rhaegar is his father or not, the show has confirmed he is Lyanna's so that should be reflected in his page.Tinuviel Undomiel (talk) 07:36, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
We should only add parenthesis around parts that stated that he was Ned Stark's son
For Example: Eddard Stark's "Bastard Son"; "Half-Brother" to Robb, Sansa, Bran, Arya, and Rickon
This makes it easier to edit the wikia page so that we don't have to delete and reword the whole thing. It also preserves a key element of the series: the fact that he was raised as the "bastard son" of Eddard Stark and raised alongside his "siblings" as a part of the family. This is a key part in his identity. Lygarx (talk) 11:11, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
I totally get why the page needed to be locked. I do have a request, though. I was in the middle of editing this right before the page was locked. Please add that the Stark children are his maternal first cousins. Also, Catelyn should be his "aunt by marriage", not his "aunt-in-law". ~ Lilyflower422 (talk) 06:24, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
These parts should not be added. A better practice is to change bastard son of Eddard Stark to "bastard son" of Eddard Stark, half-brother to "half-brother"
This preserves a key part of the character. The part where he was raised as the "son" of Eddard Stark and grew up with everyone else including his "half siblings" believing that he is just that. Not only does this make it easier to edit the wikia, it also makes it less confusing. Lygarx (talk) 11:18, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
Bio Info Edit
Why was Jon's information changed back to being a bastard of Ned Stark? The show just confirmed he is Lyanna's son, this should be updated back to the way it was before. Tinuviel Undomiel (talk) 06:59, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
Why has all the editing on Jon's page been reversed? It's been confirmed he's NOT Ned Stark's son, but some guy, Gonzalo84, has edited the page to say he is and protected it so nobody else can fix his mistakes and make the page actually accurate. R + L = J has been confirmed in episode 10, shouldn't the wikia article reflect this change?
188.8.131.52 07:34, June 27, 2016 (UTC) Tom
You can thank the people who kept saying his actual name was Aemon Targaryen, or calling him Jon Targaryen, with no evidence to say WHAT his birth name was, his name's still offically Jon Snow. AgentRedgrave (talk) 13:05, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
Are you guys mentally ill? It was perfectly edited with his updated family and his new title of King in the North and now it has been LOCKED and REVERSED. Good one Gonzalo84, so much for being a proper wiki -you don't even let others contribute, just your little admin squad.--184.108.40.206 08:58, June 27, 2016 (UTC)Darnell
For real, this is the Game of Thrones wiki, not a Song of Ice and Fire wiki...either fix your shit, or your webmaster is gonna have a hard time with this. Inaccurrate information is inaccurate.--220.127.116.11 4:51, June 27, 2016 (CST) A highly concerned fan
- Make a wiki account, all you need is a username and a password, I suggest this because I personally wouldn't feel comfortable disagreeing with someone with my IP showing. (Just saying) The page was locked due to the new rush of information and people trying to give Jon the Targaryen sigil. He's obviously the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, but to present him as a targaryen in that way doesn't seem right when he's allied with House Stark his entire life, and do not have knowledge of his parentage. --Kai200995 (talk) 09:55, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- Actually, it makes sense for him to have the left sigil a Targaryen one, as it represents his blood's house. He should have the right sigil a Stark one as he identifies himself with this House and he is loyal towards them. If we add the Targaryen sigil to people who have Targaryen political leanings, we should add the Targ left sigil to Jon as he is of the Targaryen blood. LordofBraxis (talk) 10:28, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- Forgive me as I'm not entirely familiar with the exact policies regarding the heraldry, but wouldn't it go: Targ > Stark > Night's Watch > Stark? Left side indicates family you are born to/you first serve, the middle two denote past allegiances, and the right denotes current allegiance. Jon was "allied" with House Stark, but renounced his name when joining the Night's Watch. And, of course, when he left the Night's Watch, he was once again apart of House Stark. I feel like not including Stark would be confusing and misleading, but including the sigil twice could also be messy and confusing. Reddyredcp (talk) 10:37, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- It wasn't perfectly edited. There was a constant edit war going on. People were making up names for him, changing his heraldry incorrectly, and making false assumptions. It was an absolute mess. See the revision history and the past discussions on this talk page, if you must. Reddyredcp (talk) 10:37, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
Jon's parentage confirmed (sort of) Edit
I don't know what exactly Gonzalo did to the page, but I think the page should be unlocked since Jon's parentage has been confirmed. He's the son of Lyanna Stark. (If he's also the son of Rhaegar is heavily implied, but still not wholly confirmed). Lord Sharky (talk) PINK is the new Black 10:20, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
You've got to be kidding... Edit
There are over 1500 articles on this topic on Google News and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Snow_(character) has been updated.
Lyanna Stark (mother) Rhaegar Targaryen (father) Ned Stark (uncle, foster father) Catelyn Stark (aunt, foster mother)
According to this version Lyanna has adopted the Wylla pseudonym and committed incest.
It needs to be lockedEdit
Too many people trying to edit it at once. It needs to be locked. Only admins should edit the super popular pages since too many people are trying to edit it at once.
I do recommend that parts that say that he is the bastard son of Ned Stark be put in parenthesis. The reason why is simple. To avoid spoiling too much and have the reveal all the more meaningful when placed where it is in season 6 history. "half brother" to so and so. "Bastard son" of Eddard Stark. These are some examples. Since he was raised as the "Bastard Son" and raised together with his "Half-Siblings" and everyone believed him to be the half brother, it would be best to only put parenthesis around parts that indicate his relation to his relatives until it is truly revealed to the characters themselves. His family relations are very confusing to write about. My way is likely the best way to deal with the Jon Snow character Page. Immediately changing it to 'cousin of Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon' ignores the most important part of Jon Snow. He was raised as Eddard Stark's son and the whole series basically revolves around him and everyone around him believing that he was truly Eddard Stark's bastard son. This also makes the Jon Snow Page easier to edit. When you place parenthesis around those originally assumed family relations, you don't have to change as much and reword the entire wikia and only need to add parts to the end.
- Is there a way to block it for new users only? Then users could edit it after being here for, say, 30 days or after having a certain number of edits. The current locking policy on this wiki in general is unacceptable and defeats the purpose of a wiki. --CrappyScrap (talk) 12:20, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
Okay I get that people were going crazy with the edits, screwing up the heraldy, saying his name was Aemon Targaryen (Even though we didn't hear what his birth name was), and calling him "Jon Targaryen" when he's offically, still named Snow (Since even though it's likely, his father's identity hasn't been stated, plus, it's unconfirmed if Lyanna and Rheagar were married, if not, he'd still be a Snow, as bastard surnames, are based on where the mother's from)
But the information that IS confirmed, King in the North, The White Wolf, that he's Lyanna's son, should be added back.
Though, I don't think Ned should simply be listed as "Maternal Uncle", or as Robb and the others as his "Cousins".
I think "Maternal Uncle/Adoptive Father" and (Robb as an example) "Cousin/Adoptive Brother" be used (Adoptive, cause Alleged almost makes it sound like incest was involved).
Jon was still raised as Ned's son, and as a brother to his children, that shouldn't be ignored
Okay, last night people did go crazy. I myself edited the "King Jon Targaryen" back to "King Jon Snow" citing that he was not legitimized as a Targaryen. Being called "The White Wolf" should be restored along with stating that Lyanna Stark is his mother. However, Rhaegar Targaryen (although its pretty freaking obvious) has NOT been confirmed as the father of Jon Snow. And even if he was, there is no evidence of legitimization.
- I agree and considering IF he really is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, he is still a bastard seen as how Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't marry - therefore HE CANNOT be LEGITIMIZED AS JON TARGARYEN because both of his parents are dead.
- Lyanna and Rhaegar did marry after Rhaegar dissolved his marriage with Elia. There is no need for a legitimization.
- If someone does not want to know about season 6, he obviously should not read any article on game of thrones wiki. Jon is NOT the half-brother of the Stark siblings. So you can completely remove this part but not still claim this bs. 18.104.22.168 15:13, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
You imply Stark incest theories Edit
Some people who are not that much involved into Game of Thrones think Ned would have hooked up with his own sister because got wiki still claims Ned would be his father. So either remove this lies completely or write the truth. But you can not still claim Ned would be Jon's father when it is confirmed that Lyanna is his mother. (and we know that Rhaegar is the father) 22.214.171.124 15:31, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- You do realize that we're still in the process of rewriting this article? And that Ned was still Jon's adoptive father?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:35, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- Is the article only locked for those who aren't admins? If that is the case I think it would be a good idea for the admins to update Jon's parentage and titles in the infobox, at the least. This will mean a lot to everyone who contributes and enjoys the wiki. Regarding the actual article, that's easy enough for everyone to contribute. --Kai200995 (talk) 15:59, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
That's not how titles should work. Bold is for full names.
- Excuse me? Users themselves request the article to be locked to prevent edit wars and just because you don't agree you demand US admints to do the update? If you were actually interested in improving the article or updating it you could at least create a sub-article in your own profile like User:AllHailTheFirstOrder/Jon Snow update for us to copy. But obviously it is easier to just complain and blame the admins. Bravo!--Gonzalo84 (talk) 18:31, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- You are acting really immature. It was a simple complaint because, with something major like this going on, the wiki is no longer a reliable source. Admins are supposed to keep cool in situations like this, and try to reason with their users. Block me if you like, I am done with the constant banning, temper tantrums, and power abuse by the admins here. AllHailTheFirstOrder (talk) 18:49, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
You guys are inefficient Edit
I find it a little ridiculos that 18 hours after the episode ended this article isn't fully updated, not even with the corredt family section. All you bothered putting was "Jon Snow, King in The North" at the start, which is incorrect as it should just be "King Jon Snow". This is for you admins, and before you tell us to contribute instead of complaining, try unlocking the page.--126.96.36.199 18:15, June 27, 2016 (UTC)Harold Rose
- If you bothered to reach a consensus with other editors instead of just going into edit war the article would be unlocked. Truth be told I was about to update the article, but after looking at the complains, I won't bother to even look at it for a couple of days. Good day to you, ser.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 18:34, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- Ice cold, Gonzalo :P DRAEVAN13 18:39, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
So you try to "punish" us by not updating an article on a wiki in which you're an admin and where it is your duty to keep it updated, presentable and cared for? Well done Gonzalo, what a fine admin! Letting the wiki suffer because other editors are dumb enough to start edit wars (FYI; i wasn't part of it). Glad you "knights" are picked so carefully.--188.8.131.52 18:43, June 27, 2016 (UTC)Harold Rose
Okay, it seems that things are getting a bit too tense around here. In regards to locking the wiki page, Gonzalo had the right of it. Last night, I had to make a change from "King Jon Targaryen" back to "King Jon Snow." People were going crazy and adding information that had not been confirmed yet. However, I ask you Gonzalo to update the page along with the family tree to reflect what happened in the most recent episode. I also propose, as a compromise, to add Rhaegar Targaryen as either "assumed father" or "implied father", which is factually accurate because the episode only "implies" that Rhaegar is the father due to Lyanna's fear that Robert would kill the baby and that he could, other than the three Kingsguard outside, be the father. If Martin or Benioff and Weiss confirm that Rhaegar is in fact the father, it can be easily remedied.
Oh and lastly, the incest theory is a crock of bullshit. Eddard Stark nor Brandon Stark for that matter would EVER impregnate their sister. That is something for Targaryens and the Lannister Twins due to the taboos surrounding such actions. Mantequilla219 (talk) 19:20, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- I still find it utterly ridiculous that an admin refuses to properly update an article because a few users were complaining. Other than that, I agree with Mantequilla219 here. Lord Sharky (talk) PINK is the new Black 19:24, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- If you read the previous discussion Lord Sharky, you'll see I offered a potential solution: create a sub-article with a text we can copy and paste to add to the article. My reaction was simple: I refuse to be treated like an errand boy by some anon who can't even bother to register.Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:59, June 28, 2016 (UTC)
The page still being locked is pointlessEdit
Don't you guys think that if I come to the wikia is to get information. There's a lot of things regarding Jon revealed in the last episode (The Winds of Winter): his parentage, King in the North stuff. I understand that it wasn't revealed who the father was, but his mother WAS revealed.
About the sigil, HE IS NOT RECOGNIZED AS A TARGARYEN BY ANYONE IN THE SEVEN KINGDOMS, that means that he's a member of House Targaryen by blood, but no one knows he is part of the House and he isn't affilliated with anyone in it. He doesn't even know he MIGHT be a Targaryen. So the sigils are off. I also think that the Night's Watch sigil should be removed, because he's not a brother anymore. If someone whishes to correct me, please do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DreuTzZ (talk • contribs)
Since the page is so damn popular, nothing can get edited with everyone trying to edit it all at the same time. It needs to be locked, at least until the show ends. Lygarx (talk) 06:09, August 13, 2016 (UTC)
- Now that's a bit of a stretch. It should not be locked until the show ends. I'd say it should be unlocked in time for the season 7 premiere, or simply at some random point during the off-season. Reddyredcp (talk) 17:11, August 13, 2016 (UTC)
- In response to the heraldry: that's simply not how it works. The left sigil indicates the family you were born into. The center/middle sigil(s) denote past allegiances. The right sigil denotes current allegiance. Therefore, if he were Rhaegar's son, it would be Targ (birth) > Night's Watch (previous allegiance) > Stark (current allegiance), or Targ (birth) > Stark (previous allegiance, before he left for the NW) > Night's Watch (previous allegiance) > Stark (now "allied" with House Stark again). Also, please remember to sign your name on talk pages. Simply use four tildes at the end of your edit: ~~~~ Reddyredcp (talk) 01:12, June 28, 2016 (UTC)
Wow, it took 5 minutes after the page being unlocked for someone to break the entire format of the page, and since it was edited after that it can't be undone! Someone's going to have to go through the entire article by hand and fix each heading and paragraph. I call "not it". DRAEVAN13 19:43, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- I'm locking it again. QueenBuffy 19:45, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- Hahahaha, that's got to be a new record! DRAEVAN13 19:46, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
Agreed, that needs to be changed, plus the biography needs to include info about the last episode. Plus it needs to be acknoledged in the biography that Ned is "believed" to be Jon's father, but that Lyanna is in fact Jon's mother. Right now it still states Ned is his parent. Still, I don't know though if we should acknowledge Rhaegar at all for now. Perhaps it might be better to just mention him as a potential candidate for his father, or instead include a heading dedicated to Jon's real parentage which discusses who could potentially be Jon's father? Either that or ignore Rhaegar for now, until it's ever confirmed or not. Nerdman3000 (talk) 21:03, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
Fixed Jon Snow pageEdit
To whatever admin it may concern,
I have recently created a Sandbox version of the Jon Snow article that can be found here. Feel free to edit it and then copy and paste the fixed version into the actual article. Thanks in advance. Lord Sharky (talk) PINK is the new Black 20:13, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
Looks good. Only missing the King in the North storyline, but that can be done.
Everything appears to relatively correct on the page, or at least how correct it will get without somebody messing it up, the only issue that really grinds my gears is that the listings for family are set at "paternal" when it should be "maternal" because the relations are set through Jon Snow's mother, not her father, as her father is unknown. Also, it'd be nice to have "adoptive father" next to Eddard aswell as "maternal uncle". Lord Zach (talk) 22:17, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
Made some edits for the Jon Snow page if you wanna either use it or at least a portion of it Edit
- King Jon Snow is a major character in the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth seasons. He is played by starring cast member Kit Harington, and debuts in the series premiere. Jon is raised the bastard son of Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell, and the half-brother of Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon Stark.**
- Jon Snow is the son of Lady Lyanna Stark and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. His father was killed by Lord Robert Baratheon at the Battle of the Trident before he was born. His mother, before dying from complications during pregnancy, had her brother Ned promise to protect her son. When Ned left for the south to fight in Robert's Rebellion, he left his pregnant new bride Lady Catelyn Tully at Riverrun while he continued on campaign, and she later gave birth to his first lawful son, Robb Stark. When Ned returned from the war, he had brought with him an infant boy, which he claimed was his bastard son that he fathered during the war. Ned once told King Robert Baratheon that, but he refused to elaborate any further. Ned never even told Jon himself whether his mother was alive or dead, though he later promised that when he later returned from serving King Robert in King's Landing, he would tell Jon about her (as by then he would have reached the age of adulthood).**
The first one is better of the two, however I would use the following edit to it:
- King Jon Snow is a major character in the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth seasons. He is played by starring cast member Kit Harington, and debuts in the series premiere. Born secretly as the son of Lyanna Stark, Jon is raised the bastard son of Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell, and the half-brother of Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon Stark.
I would also edit the beginning of the heading Background in Biography to include the following new sentence to replace the first sentence:
- Jon Snow is the commonly believed son of Lord Eddard "Ned" Stark and a common woman named Wylla; in truth though, he is in fact the son of Eddard's sister, Lyanna Stark, to whom Ned promised that he would protect her son, and raise him as his own.
I think those changes for now should be enough, minus of course adding in the events of the Season Finale to Jon's biography.
Jon's Family Information Edit
Hey! I just wanted to bring to your attention (though this most likely has been pointed out to you multiple times in the last twenty-four hours) that Jon's family information throughout the article needs to be updated. (For instance, throughout the article Jon is described as being Ned's son, etc.) I understand why you've locked the page, so I just thought I should offer a suggestion. Lakewillow 22 (talk) 23:43, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
Family Info Edit
With his family info, the Stark family members are incorrectly listed, they should be maternal not paternal.
184.108.40.206 00:33, June 28, 2016 (UTC)
Verifiable, not correctEdit
For the introduction:
He is believed to be the bastard son of Ned Stark and half-brother to Robb Stark, Sansa Stark, Brandon Stark, and Rickon Stark. In actuality, he is the son of Lyanna Stark and presumably Rhaegar Targaryen.
To the adminsEdit
Wikia is supposed to be an open-source encyclopedia. The goal is to be verifiable, not precise truth. The above text is logically verifiable. The way Wikia is supposed to work is openess-to allow the collective to create and edit. This system is not supposed to be run by small group of admins. That destroys the purpose of the free and openess of Wikia.
- As I have stated before... when I have unlocked Jon's page, it gets vandalized, which causes a LOT of trouble and takes up a lot of our time. Trust me, I wish I could unlock it..so I wouldn't have to continue hearing this from people. But there is a reason this page or others are protected, even if you don't understand it. Once things cool down, they'll be opened again. QueenBuffy 02:30, June 28, 2016 (UTC)
- So why didn't you update it yourselves? :/
I've been an administrator before, if people vandalize it, block them. Protect the page from anons, but protecting it from anybody that isn't an admin indefinitely is too much. Shellturtleguy (talk) 02:32, June 28, 2016 (UTC)
- Each night we get about 1.7 million views on our page. Because of the finale, we will probably get around 4 million a night. This isn't an ordinary site, and we don't have time to sit here and just wait to block/ban people. There aren't many of us. QueenBuffy 02:35, June 28, 2016 (UTC)
And I'll add.. it isn't just vandalism... they change the whole coding, and aligning.. it just makes so much trouble and takes so much time to fix. QueenBuffy 02:36, June 28, 2016 (UTC)
Understandable, QueenBuffy. However, you are an admin and you have the discretion to lock the page. 4 million hits a day, yet the necessary edits are not being made. Use your discretion. Is the time to act? Or is this the time sit behind a locked page and do nothing?
- As far as I know, this is the only page people are making a big stink about. Can you imagine if I unlock it?? Back and forth with the Rhaegar stuff. It would be a nightmare. There are sooooo many other pages to be edited, so I'm a little baffled while so many people are obsessing with this one currently. QueenBuffy 02:51, June 28, 2016 (UTC)
- Indeed, there would be no "Back and forth with the Rhaegar stuff" if you aren't needlessly reverting it.
- The big stink is: this is a peak in a wiki reader's intrigue and curiosity in Jon Snow and little has been done to give it its due course. Normally, in the internet age edits are done very quickly to meet the demand of readers that quickly go online after a big event (LBJ winning NBA Championship or Jon Snow's Coronation/identity revealed) to read about that person, to simply see it in the black and white. Yet, somehow you're baffled by people's dissapointment and astonishment that nothing has been done. Far minor characters or real life figures have their pages updated more promptly and correctly. There must be something that can be done other than reverting valued edits and locking the page?
- TheGreyWolf22 (talk) 04:58, June 28, 2016 (UTC)
The Stark sigil will now be reversed. HBO Edit
Well, idk if there is an inverted Stark sigil on here, so I made one  (cleaned up the border a little while I was putting this together; used this vector image ). Editor-in-Chief IME (talk) 06:19, June 28, 2016 (UTC)
That actually works really well, everyone's calling him the white wolf, and his personal heraldry would be a white wolf.
220.127.116.11 11:58, June 28, 2016 (UTC) Tom
Add the events of the Season 6 Finale to the Biography and fix the Family TreeEdit
While it is nice that the whole issue with Jon's parentage has mostly been fixed, you guys still need to add the events of the Season Six Finale to the biography. Another thing that will need to be changed is the family tree near the end of the page which still shows Jon as a son of Ned and Wylla. Nerdman3000 (talk) 10:52, June 28, 2016 (UTC)
Characters are being refered to by the wrong genderEdit
Hey, there's a few mistakes in the Jon Snow article, grammar wise and several times people are referred to by the wrong gender. The page is locked so I can't fix it, can any of the admins do anything about this?
18.104.22.168 11:55, June 28, 2016 (UTC) Tom
Jon vs Daenerys for Iron ThroneEdit
I'm sorry but if Daenerys comes as a child of the last Targaryen King (Aerys II) then she deserves to be the rightful Queen on the Iron Throne.
While it is still uncertain as to why Jon could be the righful king on the Iron Throne since many accuse him of being Rhaegar's son, but since Rhaegar was never a King, Jon can't be rightful king on the Iron Throne UNLESS he is the son of ROBERT BARATHEON.
If Jon is a Targaryen he can't be the King but if he's a Baratheon he has as much claim to the thrones as Daenerys.
You really don't seem understand how sucsession in a monarchy works, so I'll explain. Rhaegar was Aery's heir, and when he died, Rhaegar's son Aegon, not Viserys, became the heir. When Aegon was killed(who may or may not have died right after Aerys, making him debateably King Aegon VI, if only for a few minutes), then and only then, did Viserys count as the heir if you considered the Targayren's right to the throne legitimate anymore. When Viserys died, that right went to Daenerys, as the last Targayren. However, if Jon is Rhaegar's trueborn son, as in his mother Lyanna married Rhaegar, then Jon is Rhaegar AND Aerys heir after Aegon, and BEFORE Viserys, meaning Jon's claim would be higher then Daenerys.
It doesn't matter if Rhaegar wasn't king when Aerys died, the sucsession follows the first born son. As long as there were people decended from Rhaegar who were trueborn, their claim will always be stronger than Daenerys. Even when Rhaegar died, his claim simply moved on to Rhaegar's first born son, which was Aegon.
Second, if Jon was somehow Robert's son, which is impossible unless Lyanna was able to by some miracle be pregnant for more than a whole year, considering she died minutes AFTER she gave birth and was barely able to speak to Ned, then Jon's claim would be be illigitimate compared to Daenerys, both for the fact he's for sure a bastard, as Robert was only betrothed to Lyanna(meaning she was his fiance), and two Robert stole the throne from the Targayrens, meaning their claim has always supersieded his, especially in light of the fact that in the show canon(where Lyanna being Jon's mother is confirmed canon), Robert has not being established as being the grandson of Rhaelle Targayren, meaning he is no matter how much you support his claim in the show canon, a Usurper.
We have no eveidence whatsoever that Rhaegar is Jon's father and I understand how monarchy works and if you actually read what I said. Bastard always has less claim to the throne compared to Trueborn.
Jon can be a Targaryen or Baratheon we can swing this Pendulum both ways for the next 10 months until Season 7 airs.
Not true. There is certainly at least more evidence that Jon is Rhaegar's son at least then there is with Robert. Rhaegar at the very least is known to have either kidnapped or possibly ran off with Lyanna a year before Jon was born. There was enough time for him to impregnate Lyanna before he left and died. Plus the Kingsguard was standing guard outside the Tower of Joy, which doesn't make sense unless Jon is Rhaegar's son, as they would view him as their King, since their loyalty was to the Targayren's and they were against Robert.
Another thing to note, is that while we can't hear all of Lyanna's whispering to Ned, we can hear some of it, and one of the things she whispers at the end is "...if Robert finds out, he'll kill him. You know he will. You have to protect him." Considering Robert in the first season states that'd he'd kill any Targayren he gets his hands on, and the fact that Robert hates Rhaegar even after he's dead with a passion, then it's leads toward the likelyhood that Jon is possibly Rhaegar's son.
If Jon were somehow Robert's son, Lyanna would have been pregnant with Jon for more than a year, as Robert wasn't even with Lyanna when she disappeared. He was in the Vale and she was at Winterfell, with the last time they saw each other being at the Tourney at Harrenhall which was at least months before Lyanna disappeared and the Rebellion began.
Seeing as Dany have the strongest forces in the world right now consisting of the Iron Born Fleet, the Dornish, the Tyrells, the entire Dothraki Horde, and 3 fucking dragons, she'll most likely have no challenge. She will easily overthrow Cersei and most likely will ask Tyrion what he wants to be done because she is his sister, and most lilely he will say to kill her. So with her out of the picture, the threat is Jon Snow presumably, but if Jon Snow is infact Rhaegar's son, then that makes Dany as Jon's Aunt, so maybe Dany will give him mercy, but if he does threat her rule, she will demolish him aswell. Fire and Blood. Lord Zach (talk) 19:12, June 28, 2016 (UTC)
If in fact Jon is the son of Rhaegar, Daenerys cannot kill him without MASSIVE repercussions. She would completely lose the North and she would also be marked as a Kinslayer, which is a major taboo in Westeros. This is also assuming that Jon even wants the throne. If anyone was paying attention, Jon was named the King in the North by the Northerners. He did not claim the title at all. In fact, he even called Sansa right before that "Lady of Winterfell", meaning that he expected that Sansa would become the ruler of the North. Honestly, if it comes down to Jon vs. Daenerys for the throne, there would be no contest because Jon would most likely reject the throne unless he really had no other choice.
So in hindsight, this conversation is bullshit to begin with. And yes, while not explicitly stated, Rhaegar is most likely Jon's father, so that argument is also moot.
Also, while Daenerys has massive amounts of forces and dragons, it would be less than likely that she would be able to conquer the North. It would almost be impossible for her. Mantequilla219 (talk) 19:38, June 28, 2016 (UTC)
People that assume that Jon has the rightfull claim to the throne, i dont know how you think. First of all no one knows he is the the BASTARD son to Rhaegar Targaryen except Bran. And second of all, as i wrote in capital letter before, he is a BASTARD. Rhaegar was not married to Lyanna, he was married to Elia Martell which makes Jon a bastard. By the laws of Westeros bastards have no claim to the throne. I dont think a bastard has more claim to the throne than a trueborn Targaryen.
And lets assume he has a rightfull claim and lets also assume he does want the iron throne, how in the world will he be able to compete with Daenerys with her forces that consist the fleet of the Iron Born,the Dothraki Horde, The Unsullied , the army of Dorne and the Tyrells and 3 DRAGONS for it? Daenerys deserves and has the rightfull claim to the seven kingdoms. She is good, kind, great leader who is just. SaraDracaryen (talk) 22:09, June 28, 2016 (UTC) SaraDracaryen
That is exactly what I said, nobody stands a chance against her forces. Also, Bran is headed south the Wall, and will obviously alert Jon and everyone of Jon's heritage, but he will not be legitimized by Cersei, but there is a chance of speculation that when Daenerys takes the Iron Throne, and Jon doesn't want it, because I believe he won't, there is a chance that Daenerys may legitimize Jon because of their relation. All speculation of course. Lord Zach (talk) 22:21, June 28, 2016 (UTC)
Allow me to make a rebuttal. First off, SaraDracaryen has stated that Jon Snow is the bastard of Rhaegar Targaryen due to his marriage with Elia Martell and that neither he nor Lyanna could have possibly been married. Well, I disagree for one specific reason. Targaryens have practiced polygamy. Aegon the Conqueror had TWO wives in Rhaenys and Visenya (who were also his sisters. INCEST IS WINCEST!!!). Maegor the Cruel had seven wives, sometimes at the same time. While it was not exactly a common practice amongst Targaryens, there is precedence for polygamy. Thus, it is possible that Jon is legitimate because he could have been married to both Elia and Lyanna. Don't believe me? Look it up. However, my point was that Jon may not even want the throne. I don't believe he is the type who would dispute it. He may even decide to support Daenerys (not out of the realm of possibility, but not exactly likely).
Next, the claim that nobody stands a chance against her forces. That is a load of bull. Cersei is in deep shit, this is true. But I will reiterate, it will more than likely be extraordinarily difficult, if not outright impossible for Daenerys to conquer the North, and extremely difficult to conquer the Vale. The only way would be if Jon meets her army in the Riverlands head on. He would lose that fight. Now, all of you are thinking "Mantequilla is freaking wrong and doesn't know what he's talking about." Well, I logged over 800 hours of my life playing Total War and I'm also a history buff so let me dazzle you with logic. Yes, Daenerys has 100,000 Dothraki, 8,000 Unsullied, 100 Ironborn and their ships, Dorne (which boasts 50,000 spears although they wouldn't send that much), and the Reach with House Tyrell. Lets for the sake of argument give Daenarys a force of about 225,000 and three dragons. This force, for Westeros, would be massive. Now say they all survive the war against Cersei, which is very unlikely because she will make sure to make Daenerys' forces lessened, and Dany marches north. Lets start with the first obsticle. WINTER!!!! The North is a cold place where it snows in the Summer. Now, it is Winter. I don't know if you haven't noticed, but the Dothraki, Unsullied, and the Dornish don't particularly look too used to such weather. Snow would bog down her forces, even with dragons. And speaking of dragons, we have no idea how they deal with cold weather. The North is also vast, sparsely populated, and not exactly rich with resources. It will be like Napoleon invading Russia all over again, except this is colder. All of her forces, including those from House Tyrell, are not used to winter and will suffer immensly from winter-induced attrition without the North losing a single man. Next, invasion by sea. This might work, but again they will face winter-induced attrition and landing that many troops takes a great deal of time. Plus, Dothraki will be disoriented due to not being used to sea travel and they will also need to get their horses off the boats while possibly under attack from Northmen and Valemen, who can push them back out to sea and are used to cold weather fighting. Someone will bring up the Ironborn, but they are reavers. Little better than pirates and very lightly armored. They would do a bit better, but not by much.
Next, invasion by land. Now, if anyone knows the history of Westeros, they know the North has never been conquered. This is because of two things. The Neck and Moat Cailin. The Neck, as many know, is a massive swamp with very little solid ground and near the northern end of the Neck, but still surrounded by the swamp is the ancient fortress of Moat Cailin, which has never fallen. It has been taken due to being undermanned and/or abandoned, but it has never fallen to an enemy army. It cannot be besieged due to there being one road through and no solid ground to create siege lines. Dragons may change the tide, but Moat Cailin, unlike Harrenhal, was supposedly built by the Children of the Forest and may have some mystical protection. That and it is surrounded by water and swamp, which would be difficult to light aflame. Moat Cailin also doesn't need a very large garrison, 5-10,000 at most, and can constantly be supplied. Now, the Neck also presents a most formidible foe in the form of House Reed; the Crannogmen or Swamp People. These guys are the epitome of guerilla warfare and are harder to ferret out than the Viet Cong. They do not attack head on, but utilize hit and run attacks and can fold back into the foliage without being caught. That, and their keep known as Greywater Watch, is almost impossible to find (even reported to move from place to place in the swamp). They are also some damn good archers and wargs/greenseers as well, which could allow them to theoretically turn the fauna of the swamp against invaders. I make the point regarding archers because in Aegon's war of conquest, Queen Rhaenys Targaryen was killed when a bolt from a Dornish scorpion hit her dragon, Meraxes, in the eye, killing it. Now, I would say that due to the fact that they have to be to survive, Crannogmen are very good archers. I don't think it would be too outlandish for them to bring down a dragon if they aimed for the eyes and/or wings (which are clearly not protected). It would be very possible that she would lose a lot of her forces and even a dragon or two. The Neck could even break her forces. As for the Vale, the steep mountains, narrow valleys, and the massive Gates that guard the entrances would deny any army. The Eyrie is unconquerable save only by air. Only dragons would be able to overcome them. If attacked by sea, the Valemen can hold the vales and mountain passes easily. The Vale would probably fall, but she would sustain massive losses. Her victory would be pyrrhic.
So, I have presented my arguments in why it would be less than likey that she could conquer the North and if she did, she would lose an immense amount of her forces. Harsh winter and attrition due to winter should she ever actually sucessfully penetrate the North, the Neck with Moat Cailin and the Crannogmen, and the fact that none of her forces have any experience in cold weather warfare save for possibly the Ironborn and even then, they are not soldiers. Mantequilla219 (talk) 14:26, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
Another factor that could hinder Dany's plans to conquer the Seven Kingdoms is the Sands' killing of Myrcella Baratheon. You would think Tyrion will be royally pissed if and when he finds out wha they did to his niece. Shaneymike (talk) 16:15, July 13, 2016 (UTC)
Season 6 Finale synopsis updateEdit
People think Jon Snow is a bastard in-universe so he will remain listed as a bastard; similarly, people think his name is Jon Snow, not "Jon Targaryen", thus his name will remain listed as "Jon Snow" - and for that matter we can't even confirm if he was legitimized or not so he might be some other bastard name or nothing at all, and they imply that "Jon" wasn't even the name his parents wanted for him.
Same principle as with "Joffrey Baratheon" - everyone thinks he's a Baratheon, it's what he's publicly known as, even if he is secretly a bastard. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 12:25, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
Jon Snow's father is officially Rhaegar TargaryenEdit
Jon Snow's father is officially Rhaegar Targaryen. This will now be reflected through all aspects of Game of Thrones Wiki.
I am stunned and appalled that anyone even questioned this.
Why the heck would Rhaegar have had his Kingsguards guarding the tower? Yikes.
Time to change Rhaegar being listed as speculated father to just the one word, and "possible son" on the Rhaegar page as well, because the official GOT twitter and "makingGOT" confirmed it.
- I was saying it needed to wait only because it was never spoken about on the series itself. Some people may not have HBO GO or twitter....or even know the whole Rhaegar story... seemed more like a spoiler to me, but I'll leave that to you I guess. QueenBuffy 02:27, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
Wait...well that's different, that's a question of should we put it right at the top of not. Normally we treat anything after it airs in the USA as fair game?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:11, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
Even with official confirmation of Rhaegar being the father, Jon is still a bastard, so, for the sake of accuracy, his status really shouldn't be changed, merely the nature of his parentage as assumed for his entire life.Daveyelmer (talk) 04:58, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
We don't know if Jon is a bastard or legitimate so the article should state the ambiguity. Many believe that Rhaegar was one of the rare (but not unprecedented) Targaryen's to take on a second wife. But regardless Rhaegar should be stated definitively as the father instead of just presumably. BlueRoseRedDragon (talk) 05:07, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
If there were meant to be any official change in Jon's actual status, rather than just his assumed parentage, the same chart that confirms Rhaegar as his father would've reflected said change.Daveyelmer (talk) 05:14, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
I think the reason it didn't was that they wish to save that reveal for after Dany lands. But I won't argue with anyone who says it should say bastard and not presumed bastard as the show hasn't actually provided any evidence for marriage and books =/= show. BlueRoseRedDragon (talk) 05:18, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
I won't argue with the notion that they could possibly reveal things later, but, as of now, there should be no change in Jon's legal status (bastard) because there is no actual evidence to support such a change.Daveyelmer (talk) 05:22, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
Right well there's only one thing that needs to happen in Season 7 and that is Bran's upcoming demise. And here I actually thought that the Game of Thrones would end with a surprise but NO writers have to do the fucking stupid fan service just to please the audience.
Shocking twists for the sake of shocking twists are just as cheap as "stupid fan service." Why do you think they did this just to please the audience and not because it's what the entire story has been leading up to? BlueRoseRedDragon (talk) 05:44, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
I apologize for not getting back to this page sooner; I just finished writing all the season finale episode guide page notes, then collapsed into a heap after internship during the day - even I need to sleep sometime, guys.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 12:25, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
First of all, I would love to know where people are getting the notion that Bran is going to die. Second of all, people can't forget that Martin is writing and/or has major input on the screenplays, meaning that its not actually the show, but him.
Regarding the Rhaegar thing, while it is obvious that Rhaegar is the father, it has not been officially confirmed by Martin, Benioff, or Weiss. Therefore, we should go ahead with giving Rhaegar the "implied/presumptive/possible" so on and so forth tag until they come out and confirm it.Mantequilla219 (talk) 13:27, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
- What? Admins have lives and need to sleep? Preposterous! Reddyredcp (talk) 12:51, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
Okay, I found this on the HBO Blog. Jon is confirmed son of Rhaegar.
22.214.171.124 13:28, June 29, 2016 (UTC) A Visenya Targaryen Fangirl
Alrighty, I've added some basic updates. Now I've stepped down the page protection so it only blocks anonymous IP addresses - with such high traffic we'd have dozens of poorly written IP editors trying to add stuff in a pileup, but regular named users can add to it now.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:14, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
Okay I just checked out the blog in question and it seems legitimate. I guess its been made official. Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar, not that we didn't know that already. Mantequilla219 (talk) 14:33, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
- Regarding your footnote under the "Secret Origins" section: I've looked all over the Viewer Guide. I don't see any mention of Jon being Rhaegar's son on it, but he is said to be "the son of Lyanna Stark" on his character page. Where did you see him mentioned as Rhaegar's soon? Reddyredcp (talk) 14:19, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
first paragraph Edit
Somebody messed it all up, it's all goofy now with random letters and words right after "King". Obvious rookie editting errors. Please do not edit the page if you don't know how the templates work. Lord Zach (talk) 19:09, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
first paragraph Edit
Somebody messed it all up, it's all goofy now with random letters and words right after "King". Obvious rookie editting errors. Please do not edit the page if you don't know how the templates work. Lord Zach (talk) 19:11, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
Regardless of being blocked to new and unregistered users, people keep piling up fanon stuff liek his CULTURE being Valyrian. Adding Drogo as a relative. There are so many ways people can contribute to the wiki but everyone wants a piece of the Jon Snow article and in their obsession they keep messing it.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:12, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for putting faith in the editorship seeing as wiki could have left the page as it was a day ago. Apologies on behalf of them. 19:18, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
- Wikipedia itself semi-protects sensitive pages with high traffic like "Holocaust", "Iraq War", etc.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:31, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
I apologize, we have been brusk. The Admins are running around buried by vandalism edits that we have to fix - the result being that we're exhausted and you often don't see how bad it is because we clean up problems before they happen.
Jon's Targaryen nameEdit
The show has pretty much established that "Jon" isn't his actual first name, but he had a Targaryen name they're hiding from us.
I've seen some reports on Reddit threads claiming that they've deciphered that Lyanna said it's "Jaehaerys".
This interpretation is rejected and will have no place on the wiki for two reasons:
First, the camera cuts way when Lyanna starts talking so it is physically impossible to simply read her lips.
Second...no, the audio cuts out so much that it's essentially muted, and I think people are just imposing what they want to hear.
A thought occurs: remember how the writers retconned Jaehaerys II out of existence, but refused to give an explanation?
What...what if that wasn't to simplify the number of generations between Daenerys and Maester Aemon, but to simplify "alright do we really need to explain how Jon is Jaehaerys the Third, or can't we just say he's Jaehaerys the Second?"
I'm more partial to the theory that he's Aegon VII -- having heard that the infant Aegon VI just died at King's Landing, Lyanna could have chosen to name him Aegon again - best name for a king. What leads me to this theory is....he'd be the seventh Aegon, and we know how important seven is in this cosmology.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:47, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
King in the North Edit
This article says that Sansa's smile vanishes when Jon is proclaimed King, which is wrong - she's smiling all throughout their chanting of "KING IN THE NORTH!" until she sees Littlefinger giving her a sinister look
I don't like the wording of that all, it's not confirmed that Sansa isn't happy with Jon being king and she ws smilling the whole time except when she saw Little Finger, it only should state what happened not what we think happened. KSM89 (talk) 07:07, June 30, 2016 (UTC)
Sansa's actress (Davos' as well) have confirmed in interviews that Sansa is annoyed with Jon becoming King.
Lord of House StarkEdit
There's an ongoing discussion of the head/lord of House Stark. Here's the thread link: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:47132#16. Add some input, there's a poll too for those who love voting. Admins, there's an edit war, your involvement in the thread is recommended. --Kai200995 (talk) 15:39, June 30, 2016 (UTC)
Kit Harington's Contract Edit
I remember sometime ago that Kit said that his contract would end when he is 30, he turns 30 in December this year. Kit has said that while he has enjoyed GOT he says that he is frustrated as it prevents him from acting in other roles, which I can understand. However Jon is an important character, even before we found out who his parents were, do you think Kit will renew his contract to be in all of GOT? It is only two more seasons left anyway and he may be given a pay rise as an incentive. I think he will stay for the whole series as the perfect time to leave would have been when Jon died at the end of season 5. What do you guys think?(The Triad (talk) 22:32, June 30, 2016 (UTC))
- I think it would be much better if he left. If his contract ends this year... when are the cast and crew exactly filming and shooting scenes for Season 7 was it July-September or November-January? He could complete filming Season 7 and be killed at the end or middle of it during some very hard and difficult battle against the White Walkers, that would be amazing because let's face it - it's inevitable and I don't believe Jon will defeat all the army of White Walkers (Samwell with possibly stay in the Citadel until White Walkers are within close distance to the Capital and then he might have a solution to fend them that he will probably present to Daenerys). Jon as the protector of the North will do his best to fight off as many White Walkers as possible before succumbing to his ultimate death, Sansa might head South to warn the Capital. Eko is Oke (talk) 05:59, July 1, 2016 (UTC)
- He and the other 4 main actors (Tyrion,Jaime,Cersei and Dany), already renewed their contract for season 7 with an option of season 8. They negotiate their contracts together so they all got the same pay rise. GoT is huge, Kit and the other actors will hardly find anything like this. For actors like Kit or Emilia GoT is the work that created them..they didn't had any real work before. http://deadline.com/2016/06/game-of-thrones-cast-season-8-big-raises-salary-hbo-1201776806/ Basickk (talk) 10:35, July 1, 2016 (UTC)
- Five hundred thousand for each episode, so for season 8 they'd get 3 million. They won't get money like that in a movie or another TV series unless they have a promonent role like they do in GOT. I did see a IGN video where the actors/actresses who stick around for the full strech will geta pay rise so it doesall come together. Looking back Kit said that it would end in his 30s not necessarily when he is 30. the latest filming ends for season 8 is when he is either 31 or 32, that and the pay rise is a good bet that Kit will be around for the whole series.(The Triad (talk) 15:56, July 1, 2016 (UTC))
- Yeah but don't you think it's fucking stupid to make everyone wait NOW for Season 7 which will only have measly 7 episodes and then WAIT AGAIN 10 months for just LAST 6?? It's fucking ridiculous, why can't they just to 10 episodes every season for fuck's sake? Nevertheless, if we do get only 7 episodes for Season 7; I expect all 7 of them to be at least 70 minutes long each to be close to what the length of previous seasons were and also Season 8 if it's to have 6 episodes they should be no shorter than 80 minutes!! If they do like that then it's pretty much a fair deal to do 7 and then 6 episodes for remaining 2 seasons. Eko is Oke (talk) 16:42, July 1, 2016 (UTC)
- Yes that is frustrating. One of the creators of the series said that there may be 75 hours in total which means that we may get 15 episodes instead of 13 though that doesn't make much of a difference. If 10 episodes each for seasons 7 and 8 isn't an option, I think it would be best if they put all 13 episodes in season 7 and make that the final season.(The Triad (talk) 16:51, July 1, 2016 (UTC))
- OK I did a little counting and all 60 episodes currently aired for Game of Thrones have a total of 55 hours 47 minutes. So we have 19 hours and 13 minutes respectively of episode time remaining. IF we do have only 13 episodes remaining then by having each episode at 88 minutes would just be few minutes shy of a total of 75 hours. Eko is Oke (talk) 17:27, July 1, 2016 (UTC)
Add Khal Drogo Edit
Way too far removed of a family relationship too include - they are not even blood relatives. Jon could kill Drogo and it wouldn't be considered kinslaying so including it as a family relationship is unwarranted.
Jon couldn't beat Drogo, Drogo doesn't even need a blade to win a fight Heir to House Bolton 19:00, July 1, 2016 (UTC)
Unlock please? Edit
I can understand why the page was locked due the edit war debating whether or not Rhaegar was Jon's father, but now that HBO have confirmed that Rhaegar is indeed Jon's father can the page be unlocked for registered users please?(The Triad (talk) 23:29, July 2, 2016 (UTC))
Hi ho everyone, just to reiterate: after the finale I stayed up until dawn focusing on writing the episode article for the season finale. After collapsing into a heap I then moved on to the "Jon Snow" article. We were faced with a choice between a massive uncontrolled edit war or locking the page until we could get a handle on it -- the entire internet was trying to edit it at once. I mean physically. For a time I couldn't get through without edit conflicts.
None of this was a "punishment": I'm baffled that some here are so surprised that there was a chaotic rush to the Jon Snow article after a major plot revelation :)
The infograph and Rhaegar Edit
I was just wondering how come the infograph confirms that Rhaegar is Jon's father, but on the viewer guide there is no mention of Rhaegar? I know the infograph was on a HBO website but how can we be sure it is by the writers orthe GOT team? Why not have Lyanna say "Ned, Rhaegar is the father. If Robert finds out he'll kill him." Why didn't they do that in the S6 finale if they were going to reveal who the father is via an infograph? Im suprised it wasn't brought up by the writers in the inside the episode. What do you guys think?(The Triad (talk) 21:18, July 3, 2016 (UTC))
I guess you're right, the infograph is on the HBO website and if it was a hack then it would have been taken down by now. MakingGameofThrones.com is by HBO isn't it?(The Triad (talk) 23:21, July 3, 2016 (UTC))
Night Watch ShieldEdit
Updating Night Watch Shield under family tree to match Aemon's & Benjen's. http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Template_talk:Familytree/Jon_Snow
How Jon Snow's infobox post-Season 6 finaleEdit
Following the Season 6 finale:
Jon is not aware of his Targaryen parentage and thus won't be listed with any of the titles that go with that, i.e. "Prince of Dragonstone"; his culture is Northmen, not Valyrian, etc. as it's what he was raised in and he is half-Northerner.
The only thing that changes is his "Family" listing; being in "House Targaryen" is part political, part familial, but due to secret parentage in this case it is purely familial.
Now I cleaned this up a little by making subheaders on "Maternal family" and "Paternal family".
Do not change anything from how I've left it now.
As with other Targaryens, there's the probem that they have a massive family tree, so at the outset, we should limit Jon's individual page to people who appear on-screen.
Now at the very least, a family tree should include "nuclear family", perhaps supplemented with "relatives who grew up in your household" in the case of a close cousin. Of course, this really only applies to the largest family trees - Targaryen, Stark, not really Greyjoy - though the largest ones are also disproportionately important. Also, distant family members that they interact with, i.e. cousins and uncles they share screentime with.
So Jon is a very exceptional case, not a template for others.
"Maternal family" seemed easy enough: the current nuclear Stark family, might as well throw uncles in - he interacts with Benjen, might as well throw Brandon in there, etc.
"Paternal family" more difficult. Put in nuclear family of course - siblings and his descent from the Mad King, but not queen Rhaella (superfluous), Daenerys but not Viserys (he died before they could ever interact).
Catelyn stays as "aunt by marriage" due to her importance in his storyline/physical household. But she's not his "stepmother" under any legal definition.
A lesser reason to include a character is if they're "still alive" in the TV show; Gendry is still alive and probably Jon's third cousin through the Targaryens, so that was a case of "throw it in".
Targaryen incestuous relationships will be severely limited in future listings.
Yes Daenerys is actually his first cousin twice over because Rhaegar and Daenerys's parents were brother and sister...but that would needlessly clutter the infobox (if Aerys II and Rhaella were alive it might be differnet, but they're not).
In-laws will be severely restricted to only the relevant ones.
First, we've got Sansa's two sham marriages, with Tyrion and (TV-only) Ramsay; this has zero impact on Jon, his storyline, and is thus irrelevant. On top of that in some pages people were listing all the Boltons and Lannisters as in-laws through Sansa.
Second, we have Robb's marriage....which ended with Robb's death and produced no issue, and in no way affected Jon whatsoever because it began and concluded while he was at the Wall. In this very specific case, I see no driving need to clutter up an already very full infobox with Talisa/Jeyne.
I kind of wanted to put Ygritte in there, but (shrug) I put her in the family tree to be nice. Common law wildling marriage, as it were. Whatever.
So I think the infobox as it is at this point in time is perfect.
...With respect to Targaryens and Targaryen titles, of course. Jon's status as King in the North/Lord of Winterfell re Sansa is an entirely separate issue, not merely limited to the infobox.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:08, July 3, 2016 (UTC)
Reference #1 Edit
"The official HBO Viewer's Guide website now confirms that Jon is really Rhaegar's son." Where does it confirm this? I am aware of the infographic that confirms the truth, but I don't believe that the viewer guide websites states anywhere that he is Rhaegar's son. The last time I checked (this morning), it only said that he was the son of Lyanna Stark. Reddyredcp (talk) 02:07, July 4, 2016 (UTC)
Apparently it is more difficult to update the viewer guide. I brought up in the talk section titled "Infograph and Rhaegar". The infograph is on MakingGameofThrones.com, is it HBO, or the writers, or George RR Matin who is behind the website?(The Triad (talk) 13:32, July 4, 2016 (UTC))
- HBO, I'd assume. If it's too difficult to update the viewer guide, then it's not on the viewer guide (if that's your implication), and therefore reference #1 is incorrect. Shall it be removed? Reddyredcp (talk) 13:45, July 4, 2016 (UTC)
MakingGameOfThrones.com is considered basically part of "The HBO Viewer's Guide", or at least, another "official" source. It's in an official source, that means it's done. I changed the reference to "MakingGameOfThrones.com". It's done.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 13:50, July 4, 2016 (UTC)
If MakingGameOfThrones.com is run by HBO and is offical like you said, then there is no doubt about Rhaegar being Jon's father. HBO are the ones behind it aren't they? Your use of offical with "" cast a little doubt that's all. When you mean reference do you mean the  near Rhaegar in Jon's infobox?(The Triad (talk) 14:10, July 4, 2016 (UTC))
- I wasn't doubting his parentage, I was questioning whether or not it was mentioned on GameofThrones.com. I did not know that MakingGameOfThrones.com was also considered to be apart of the "Viewer Guide." And yes, the  is a reference. I used quotation marks around the text of the reference because I was quoting it, referring to it. It's resolved now though, thanks. Reddyredcp (talk) 14:50, July 4, 2016 (UTC)
- For me it still says the "HBO Viewer Guide" instead of "MakingGameOfThrones". I've been on the MakingGameOfThrones and it is offical and is by HBO. I know you weren't doubting Jon's parentage, neither was I. I was just doubting the validity of MakingGameofThrones. Now those doubts are gone, also a number of news articles about the infograph and Jon's parentage confirms that it is by HBO.(The Triad (talk) 15:03, July 4, 2016 (UTC))
About Sansa's alledged jealousy Edit
[...] At this, Sansa begins to smile, assuming Lyanna means to hail her as Queen in the North - but then her smile vanishes as Lyanna continues by saying that Jon's name might be "Snow", but he is a Stark to her, and she hails him as the new King in the North
Seriously :o ??!! People who wrote thatt clearly didn't watch the episode or hate Sansa so much. Sans looks happy for Jon and even smiles when Jon is proclaimed King in the North. Her smiles vanishes when she sees Littlefinger not before because she is worried about what he's up to after the northerners crashed his plan. And btw how can you be sure she " assumed Lyanna meant to hail her as Queen"? Did you read her Mind? Did you have a private conversation with D&D? I posted a video so you can watchit by yourselves.
Ygritte in infobox?Edit
Er....I kind of put Ygritte in the infobox because in the books they point out that by capturing and having sex with Ygritte, she's sort of Jon's "wildling common law wife", as it were.
From User Blairwashere2:
From User Summeye1:
From my Userpage as of 10 minutes ago:
"Heads. Spikes. Walls.
I hope this message has been clear.
In the past week since the season finale aired, the wiki has been near-crippled by a massive influx of new users; many well meaning, others inevitably not. We weren't helped by the constant hounding about not having every article updated.
Moreover, no matter how frequently we check on the Jon Snow page, new users are always going to come on and add Targaryen sigils or outright fanon about his Targaryen name.
Wikipedia.org frequently has to lock high traffic articles.
If there are specific points or complaints, please bring them up on the talk page.
Otherwise, enough. Enough! Enough of being overwhelmed checking through a flood of new user posts endlessly arguing back and forth. This slowed down our overall constructive updates on post-finale information, and research on post-finale updates.
Time to take action to get the gears turning again.
Make no mistake, from this point on, failure has consequences.
Gonzalo84: Updates on Jon Snow and House Stark articles require your immediate review.
Xanderen, Ser Shield McShield, and ByzantineFire: Screenshots from the season finale including heraldry designs are needed for upload and implementation.
QueenBuffy: I'm going to tear this wiki apart to remove all new users who have been disruptive in the past week. Then we will address plot holes caused in adaptation.
And bring me the showrunners, I want them ALIVE! --The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:08, July 5, 2016 (UTC)
- Unfortunately there is no reasonable argument against this decision, as it's clear that many highly immature individuals have gone out of their way to ruin it for everyone. - 06:38, July 5, 2016 (UTC)
- You and Tarkin don't mess around. I can understand your frustration, which I share. On Metal Gear Wiki we have vandalism with those who think it is funny or clever to change "Big Boss" to "Big Boobs" God it's annoying. I was wondering if permenantly locking the pageis necessary? Temporarily I understand. There are those who are not malicious who just want to contribute to the wiki. Maybe instead of locking the pages maybe we could permenantly block those that cause vandalism with no warning, as no warning is needed for it goes without saying. I'd like to hear your opinion.(The Triad (talk) 14:13, July 5, 2016 (UTC))
I don't think the page should be locked permanently, however, I acknowledge that there has been an extreme influx of users editing the page for their own means, malicious or not. I recall back on the Young Dracula wiki, someone edited the main character's page to state "I love the show Young Dracula." I think it would probably be best to keep the page locked until Season 7, or at least until all the internet fan theories cool off and it's somewhat safe to unlock it. I would suggest the admins check the sandbox for ideas or at least listen to complaints, because a lot of my edits are for grammar or clarification.Ainzeelee (talk) 22:00, July 6, 2016 (UTC)Ainzeelee
It's so disapointing to see how the contributors follow their own agenda and take their own interpretation as the whole truth.
1/ Jon Snow is not a Targaryan as long as we don't know if his parents were married
2/ Jon Snow may be a Stark since he's King now ( House Snow is weird lol) but still it's not confirmed. We have to wait until season 7 is aired
3/ Jon Snow's name is not Jaherys or Aegon or whatever.
D&D Miguel Saponik even said we'll never know
4/ Sansa's smile didn't vanish because she was jealous of Jon but because she saw Littlefinger's face and knew he was preparing something bad
Stop misinforming the readers!!!
Jon is neither Targaryen or Stark even though he is part of both families, as he has not been legitimized under either one of those names. He may be King in the North but that doesn't make him a Stark, he is still a Snow.(The Triad (talk) 15:10, July 5, 2016 (UTC))
- Yes sure, he's not legitimized, but King Jon of House Snow is super odd, isn't it?. We will find out on the next season though! GaiaTanner (talk) 15:35, July 5, 2016 (UTC)GaiaTanner
You are right but the last is not a fact, it's the way you interpreted it. I saw it this way also, but Sophie Turner (who plays Sansa Stark) and the show runners said there is jealousy and she now trusts LF more. I guess they know better than us.Basickk (talk) 08:39, July 5, 2016 (UTC):
I'm not interpreting anything. I describe the scene as it is. Sansa stop smiling when she sees Littlefinger's face and not before. Sansa may be jealous ( we don't know until we see season 7) but stating : " [...] but then her smile vanishes as Lyanna continues by saying that Jon's name might be "Snow", but he is a Stark to her, and she hails him as the new King in the North." is beyond false because it doesn't fit the description of the scene, you just have to rewatch the episode. People need to be more rigorous :p GaiaTanner (talk) 09:05, July 5, 2016
Thanks Gaia, I was hoping that Miguel was going to flat out say that Rhaegar is Jon's father, I know its confirmed but I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up by the Game of Thrones team at all.(The Triad (talk) 14:56, July 5, 2016 (UTC))
Interesting, but his exact words were only: "Miguel Sapochnik (Director): The secret she whispers into his ear just before she dies? The best way to answer that question is to not answer it. You’re not going to know what she said." -- that could mean anything.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:57, July 5, 2016 (UTC)
Paternal and Maternal Split Edit
- I certainly hope so, I think it's marvelous. I would definitely add it to Ned and Catelyn's children. Shaneymike (talk) 13:07, July 5, 2016 (UTC)
The Heir to The Iron Throne Edit
Jon swore a vow to the nights watch "disclaim all lands and titles" if Rhaegar and Lyanna were in fact married, Jon gave up those titles, so Dany is still the rightful heir and chances are Jon is still a bastard which again would mean Dany is the rightful heir, but Robert was not the rightful heir and he took it so I guess the heir doesn't really matter anymore. If war were to come between the two, yes the neck may be hard to cross, but dragons can fly over it and Winterfell is NOT fire proof, neither are Starks so sorry Jon, but hopefully they team up. Dragonsbeatwolves (talk) 17:32, July 5, 2016 (UTC)
- Do you truly think is interested in the Iron throne. He always wanted to be considered as a Stark and now is the KitN I think h's happy with that! It's right Dany has her dragons but her half naked army ( Unsullied+ Dothraki) can't stand a chance during the Winter. And don't forget Euron, she will have an hard time gaining the throne because of him GaiaTanner (talk) 18:28, July 5, 2016 (UTC)GaiaTanner
- "My watch has ended"
- They will team up, one of the dragons belongs to him. Remember Aegon the Conqueror and his sister-wives, each dragon needs a rider, the third is obviously Tyrion, in fact the adulterous son of the Mad King
The vow explicitly states that it ends upon his death. Jon died and was then released form his oath. That was the entire point of that event. If the oath applied he could never have become King in the North either. BlueRoseRedDragon (talk) 01:02, July 8, 2016 (UTC)
Is this Twitter account by HBO? Edit
This Twitter account retweets the link to the MakingGameofThrones.com about the infograph. https://twitter.com/GameOfThrones/status/748305076133867520?lang=en-gb I was wondering if HBO owns this account(The Triad (talk) 01:03, July 6, 2016 (UTC))
Because the Twitter account retweeted the page on the MakingGameofThrones.com about the infograph regarding Jon and Rhaegar. Just curious if HBO were retweeting their infograph from their website MakingGameofThrones.com. Thank you for letting me know that they do own that Twitter account. I already know that HBO is in charge of MakingGameofThrones.com I just wanted to know if they own this Twitter account. Thanks to you I now know that they do. Thank you.(The Triad (talk))
Okay, if you're going to list Robert and Gendry (one of whom he hasn't even met) as his family because they share some distant Targaryen relative, you might as well add Stannis, Shireen, and Renly, because they share the same degree of relation, and Stannis has had a much more integral effect on his life. (Other than Robert leading to Jon being raised as a bastard, he hasn't really had that big of an effect on him, and Gendry hasn't really affected him at all.) Just a thought.Ainzeelee (talk) 16:47, July 7, 2016 (UTC)Ainzeelee
I would have if they were still alive, but I'm not trying to make an exhaustive list of a huge dynasty.
- How closely related they are
- Are they still alive in the TV show
- Did they have scenes together
Though....Stannis and Shireen did appear on-screen with Jon. Gendry might be relevant next season....maybe I should take out Robert and Gendry and only put them back if that becomes relevant, I don't know.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:19, July 7, 2016 (UTC)
I agree, Robert and Gendry should be taken out and only put back only if they become relevant in the upcoming seasons. Besides, we don't know how exactly they are related to the Targaryens since the family tree was altered in the TV show. In the Complete Guide to Westeros video "House Baratheon", Robert states that his claim to the throne was only based on his descent from Orys Baratheon, said to be a half-brother of Aegon I Targaryen.--(AshBell 03:14, July 9, 2016 (UTC))
Also, I'd like to say the relation is wrong. Jon's relation to Robert would be correct if we were following book continuity, (and assuming Jon's parents are the same in the books) but the show continuity removed Aerys II's father Jaeherys II, which, as well as meaning that Aegon had two daughters named Rhaelle and Rhaella, makes Robert Jon's second cousin, not his second cousin twice removed. And while, following show continuity, this would make Gendry Jon's third cousin, in book continuity, he would be Jon's second cousin twice removed. So Gendry's show relation is correct, but Robert's is not. I understand wanting to be lazy when doing this, and assuming that we were following book rules, and that the child of a second cousin once-removed would be a third cousin, if you're going to add obscure, pointless relations, please get them right. Sincerely, someone with too much time on their hands that felt the need to clarify said obscure, pointless relations, and then felt the need to go off on the person that decided to add them because they couldn't fix them themselves.Ainzeelee (talk) 06:32, July 9, 2016 (UTC)Ainzeelee
His true name... Edit
- It's a good thought, but I think that GRRM himself has stated that Ned named Jon. Most likely after Jon Arryn, of course. Reddyredcp (talk) 21:02, July 7, 2016 (UTC)
- Well Ned named his sons after all the important men in his life
- Robb= Robert Baratheon
- Jon= Jon Arryn
- Bran= Brandon (Ned's brother)
- Rickon= Rickard ( Ned's father)
- Sansa and Arya are common names in the North I guess
- GaiaTanner (talk) 18:58, July 9, 2016 (UTC)
- Actually, Rickon is a common Stark name, as are Brandon, Sansa, Arya. There was also an ancient King in the North called Jon Stark.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 14:58, July 13, 2016 (UTC)
Do you think Jon's parents were married? Edit
I'm sure we will find out next year, but do you guys think that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married? The reason I think they were is when Lyanna whispers in Ned's ear she said "His name is...". Regardless what Jon's first name is, the whisper hints that Jon's last name is Targaryen.(The Triad (talk) 22:48, July 7, 2016 (UTC))
- They maybe secretly married, but still it doesn't change Jon's status as there are no living witnesses to prove that
Sansa was not usurped Edit
Some people here obviously have no idea about a neutral point of view. Sansa was not usurped. There was no heir because there also was no king. Jon was proclaimed after he conquered Winterfell as the Commander of an army. She also smiles and looks concerned about littlefinger - not with him. 126.96.36.199 23:27, July 12, 2016 (UTC)
Family Tree Edit
I see that the main page only displays the family tree of House Stark. Shouldn't it display the Targaryen Family Tree too? 188.8.131.52 11:08, July 13, 2016 (UTC)
Infograph on the Page Edit
I was wondering if it would be alright to have the infograph in either behind the scenes section or the gallery, or both. I would do this myself but as the page is locked I cannot and I also don't want to be hasty and do something that might not be best for the wiki. I don't see any reason why we can't use the infograph in the behind the scenes and or gallery. If you agree or disagree let me know what you think.(The Triad (talk) 00:48, July 14, 2016 (UTC))
Are you talking about this one: http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/got-connections-ned-promise-tower-of-joy-infographic
If so, I find that to be one of the most confusing infographics created - but, as always - that is just my personal opinion.
Yep that's the one. Fair enough, I do agree that the graph is confusing initially because of all the characters involved with the Targaryen family and the Tower of Joy. However it does confirm that Rheagar is Jon's father and was first revealed on MakingGameofThrones.com which is run and owned by HBO so there is no doubt about the validity of the graph.(The Triad (talk) 01:08, July 14, 2016 (UTC))
The alleged "infograph" is needlessly confusing and not very helpful; you'd think they'd have put the effort into updating the family trees on the official Viewer's Guide website for House Stark. Argh. So yes, put it in the "behind the scenes" section as...a "citation", but don't make it bigger than a standard thumbnail. We only need proof it exists, I don't expect anyone to read the damn thing in-text - it's just too small, it would have to be 300px or the size of the page to read properly anyway. So use a smaller thumbnail I guess.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:16, July 14, 2016 (UTC)
The mad king Edit
Ok just a thought does anybody wonder if they might end up making Jon the actual "mad" one instead of Daenerys, think about it they set it up so everyone thinks it'll be Dany but she is the warrior of light, she is fire, fire saves the world not destroys it, and bran is ice, now Jon has Areys Targaryens blood too so it's possible and it's always know that fire and ice don't mix so what happens when they do a totally epic villain who nobody expected to be bad because he's the "hero" of the world. I don't know it just would be cool to see him go insane and to have bran and Dany have to team up and take down the monster born of ice and fire. Just a thought because everyone keeps saying Dany is because she's a Targaryen but so is Jon so why is he automatically not able to be evil when to be honest Dany has done more goods than bads. Just a theory nothing more. Dragonsbeatwolves (talk) 01:49, July 14, 2016 (UTC)
At one point after "The Winds of Winter" aired, somebody changed the Culture aspect of the infobox to reflect that Jon is part-Valyrian, which is technically true, but I changed it back to just "Northmen" because a. that is the bulk of his heritage and b. that was the culture he grew up in. Still, I was wondering if maybe we could add a section or subsection discussing Jon's blood ties to Valyria and to a lesser extent Dorne since two of his paternal female forbears, Myriah Martell and Dyanna Dayne, were Dornish wonen. Shaneymike (talk) 03:12, July 15, 2016 (UTC)
So far we have decided a characters culture based on the father. If we use both Valyrian & Northmen to Jon's page, we would have to add Andal to all the Stark children page since Catelyn was an Andal. impmon101(talk) 09:25, July 15, 2016 (UTC)
- One thing is the blood/ancestry/ethnicity... another quite different is the Culture: values, ideas, social practices, ideology etc, in which he was raised. Jon was raised a Northman since birth, no more, no less.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 05:24, July 15, 2016 (UTC)
- I remember Sansa's page at one point listed her culture as "Northmen (with strong Andal influence)". I understand that culture has more to do with what Gonzalo said, which is why I wasn't suggesting we change his culture in the infobox. I'm just thinking it might be worth mentioning somewhere in the article, not necessarily the infobox, that the Jon also has Valyrian and Dornish ancestry through his father. Shaneymike (talk) 09:20, July 15, 2016 (UTC)
"Culture" is how you were raised, and has absolutely nothing to do with genetic blood heritage. Jon has no idea he's part-Valyrian, no exposure to the Targaryen cultural aspects whatsoever, thus his culture isn't "Valyrian". We listed a few of the Stark children as a mix due to being raised in an interfaith household - but Jon had no contact with Catelyn.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:29, July 19, 2016 (UTC)
Edit - "Rickon Stark" is missing a close-bracket ("}") in the Jon's character section. It may mess-up automated parsers.
Edit - "Aegon Targaryen" is missing a close-bracket ("}") in the Jon's character section.
Can someone please remove this rubbish: As they cheer for their new king, the usurped Sansa exchanges a concerned glance with Littlefinger. --CrappyScrap 15:19, July 28, 2016 (UTC)
Personal Heraldry? Edit
So, this is less about anything having to do with the story, or characters, but more about what Jon might take as his personal heraldry, given him ever finding his true parentage. Now, there's the obvious, and commonly mentioned, 'White Wolf' heraldry, which is entirely possible, even if he did know who his parents are. After all, one might still consider him a Stark bastard, and when the company Valyrian Steel made replicas of his sword, George R.R. Martin himself told them to use that banner for the plaque that comes with it. There's also the small, meager chance he might take Targaryen arms, and just as a bit of fanon, a flaming winter rose would be cool. It feel strange, thinking of him using the Stark banner, but he has already done so, and obviously he doesn't have to take a personal coat of arms. Thoughts?Ainzeelee (talk) 01:45, August 21, 2016 (UTC)
- If you want to discuss a potential development in the show its better to use or create a forum discussion. This talk page is about the article.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 02:46, August 21, 2016 (UTC)
Someone please change the summary about him and Sansa! Edit
Will someone PLEASE change the ridiculous part of Jon's summary that Sansa was smiling because she thought Lyanna would name her Queen of the North. No, she was clearly smiling because she obviously liked the fact that Lyanna was telling off all of those idiot men for not supporting their cause in the first place. Her smile was basically verging on laughter as well. She was trying to hide it! And she was happy for Jon, she smiled at him and the look she shared with Littlefinger was one of nervousness. You could CLEARLY tell that the look on her face was one being worried since she didn't know what Littlefinger would do. And also please add the fact that earlier when Jon said that he considers himself not a Stark, Sansa says to him "you are to me". And the way she says it and the hurt look on her face indicates that she obviously means it. She's saddened that he would think that way about himself. Anyway, any annoyance that she might have felt at the meeting would be understandable anyway. She got NO credit for all of her hard work in taking back the North as well. It was also all her idea. Everyone ignored her and that wasn't fair.