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Talk:King of the Andals and the First Men

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Nomenclature Edit

Joffrey is the one currently wearing the crown, so although his position is disputed, we should refer to him as King for the time being. Both Renly Baratheon and Stannis Baratheon want to be King, but it's too soon to refer to them as kins already. - regards, KS - KarinS 11:58, June 21, 2011 (UTC)

Rename article Edit

The term "King on the Iron Throne" is a nickname for Joffrey used in the books and never in-universe. Also, it is not the formal title of the King. The article should be renamed "King of Westeros" and each title the King holds should merit its own article, just like there's an article for "Lord of Winterfell" and "Warden of the North" and "Lord Paramount of the North".--Gonzalo84 19:42, June 10, 2012 (UTC)

He's not "King of Westeros" they never claimed the whole continent (in theory), and for many years Dorne was independent. Nor is he "King of the Seven Kingdoms". The in-universe title is "King of the Andals and the First Men (and the Rhoynar)". This reflects common medieval practice. The concept of "England" or "France", did not exist on an abstract level; the modern concept of a "nation-state" hadn't been developed yet. You had the "King of the English", "King of the Franks", etc. It was based on peoples, not abstract concepts of "the State". Yes it should not have an article.--The Dragon Demands 01:38, June 11, 2012 (UTC)
Indeed. Though Stannis lays claim to "the Iron Throne of Westeros", not to the "Kingship of the Andals and the First Men" or "Lordship of the Seven Kingdoms". In any case the article should be split.--Gonzalo84 02:57, June 11, 2012 (UTC)
The term 'King on the Iron Throne' is used in official HBO documents, including the Viewer's Guide, which is a viable source for the wiki. The term 'King of Westeros' is inaccurate as the Seven Kingdoms do not cover all of Westers (though it's near enough for common usage, as Stannis did). 'King of the Seven Kingdoms' is never used in either book or series, although it is descriptively accurate. The correct term should therefore be 'King on the Iron Throne' or 'King of the Andals and the First Men' (noting again that the Rhoynar and their part of the title have not been mentioned in the series, and should not be included).--Werthead 18:34, June 17, 2012 (UTC)
So far the viewers guide has referred just to Joffrey as the King on the Iron Throne... not Robert or the prior kings. "King on the Iron Throne", "King in the Narrow Sea", "Queen Across the Sea" are just aliases, not titles. I was also uncomfortable with "King of Westeros" so I'll move it to "King of the Andals and the First Men".--Gonzalo84 01:22, June 18, 2012 (UTC)
Thank you, I agree.--The Dragon Demands 15:20, June 18, 2012 (UTC)


I suspect that, in later seasons, they may retroactively establish "and the Rhoynar" when they introduce characters from Dorne. I.e. an episode will air in which they simply state "King of the Andals and the First Men and the Rhoynar". Then again, they weren't kings of the Rhoynar as well until about a hundred years ago so...yeah...--The Dragon Demands 15:22, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

I think the show will explain that the King of Westeros is not "King of the Rhoynar" because the Dornishmen were never conquered and remain ruled by their Prince and Dornish law.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:04, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

Missing Kings Edit

WARNING: there are minor book spoilers in this topic regarding the line of the Targaryen monarchs. If it's really important for you to know who was the King on the Iron Throne 150 years prior to Game of Thrones, then do not read this.

First of all, we all know that Jaehaerys II did not make it into the show. I understand it, although I think it takes away from Aegon V's character, who is one of my favorite kings in the whole series. However, more kings other than Mad Aerys' father are missing: King Aenys (37-42), the successor of Aegon the Conqueror; King Jaehaerys I the Conciliator (48-103), possibly the most important king of House Targaryen, successor of Maegor; Jaehaerys' son, King Viserys I (103-129), who has most certainly made it into the adaptation; and King Daeron I the Young Dragon, vanquisher of Dorne and who will most likely be introduced later on, successor of Aegon III.

I do not think adding them to this page would do anyone harm - indeed it will prevent history enthusiasts from going into the book wiki and accidentally spoiling themselves (such as I nearly did).

We can only make articles on kings who were at least mentioned in the TV series. As of the end of Season 3, the only missing kings are: Aenys I, Viserys I, Daeron I, and Jaehaerys II - though they said they intentionally cut Jaehaerys II. Aenys was a weakling who would only be mentioned in the context of Maegor the Cruel, but hopefully a future "complete guide to Westeros" devoted to Maegor will address that. Meanwhile, I'm confident that Daeron I will be mentioned when Dorne gets introduced. Viserys I might be mentioned if they ever explain what the Dance of Dragons was.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:13, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Well I was hoping that the Season 3 Histories & Lore featurettes would give more info, but no such luck. Jaehaerys II being officially cut from the TV continuity, there are only three remaining kings not yet established in TV canon:

  • Aenys I - weakling older brother of Maegor the Cruel. They have at least stated that Maegor was Aegon I's son.
  • Viserys I - they've mentioned his son Aegon II and his daughter Rhaenyra, but they haven't mentioned him by name and it's not enough to establish him within the TV continuity.
  • Daeron I - The Young Dragon, conqueror of Dorne. I suspect he will probably be mentioned in Season 4 once Dorne is introduced.

--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:47, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Also we've finally gotten some general info on who the Targaryen queens were, from the World of Ice and Fire app information. Due to the Targaryens' extreme inbreeding, it's interesting to know the few times that other bloodlines entered into the royal line. The full list goes like this:

Aegon and his sisters were the fifth generation of Targaryens born on Dragonstone, the seventh to rule there. Rulers of Dragonstone were:

  • Aenar the Exile - led the Targaryen exile to Dragonstone just before the Doom of Valyria, along with his son Gaemon and his daughter Daena the Dreamer, whose prophetic dreams encouraged their exodus.
  • Gaemon the Glorious - wed to sister-wife Daena the Dreamer
  • Aegon and Elaena - a brother-sister pair who co-ruled as a wedded couple
  • Maegon - son of Aegon and Elaena. Wife unknown.
  • Aelix, Baelon, and Daemon - three sons of Maegon. Aelix and Baelon ruled in turn but both died without issue, and were succeeded by Daemon.
  • Aerion - son of Daemon and an unknown wife. Wed to Velena Velaryon. Father of Aegon the Conqueror, Visenya, and Rhaenys; widely considered to have fathered bastard son Orys Baratheon (mother as yet unrevealed).

Afterwards, if no sister was available in the current generation, Targaryen men would frequently marry women from House Velaryon, because they were at least other Valyrians. Also everyone descended from Aegon was at least part-Velaryon so the Velaryons would all be cousins to some degree (though I don't know if younger Targaryen daughter later married into the Velaryons, so that later Velaryons descend from Aegon I).

  • Aegon I - married to sister-wives Visenya and Rhaenys. Visenya's only child was Maegor, while Rhaenys had one son Aenys and several daughters.
  • Aenys I - married to Alyssa Velaryon. Born after the Conquest, in 7 AL. Father of Jaehaerys, Alysanne, and Rhaena.
  • Maegor - somehow succeeded ahead of Jaehaerys. Forcibly married two of Aenys I's sisters, then a woman named Jeyne Westerling; had eight wives in his lifetime, sometimes with multiple wives at the same time, but died without issue. Killed some of his wives, may have married/killed Rhaena.
  • Jaehaerys I - married to Alysanne, with whom he had nine children.

The generation between Jaehaerys and his grandson Viserys I is one of our biggest gaps in knowledge. He had one son named Aemon and another named Baelon. Aemon married Jacelyn Baratheon and their daughter was Rhaenys, the "Queen Who Never Was". Rhaenys married Corlys Velaryon (world-famous navigator and explorer), and had two children: Laenor and Laena Velaryon. After Rhaenys died two bastard brothers were legitimized: Addam of Hull and Alyn of Hull. Unknown if the Addam and Alyn Velaryon were actually the bastards of Corlys himself.

  • Viserys I - grandson of Jaehaerys I through unknown path. Married twice. First marriage was to a woman of House Arryn, producing only Rhaenyra Targaryen. Second marriage to Alicent Hightower produced Aegon II, Aemond One-Eye, and Daeron the Daring. Also daughter Helaena, who married Aegon II.
    • Meanwhile, Viserys I's younger brother Daemon married Laena Velaryon, while Rhaenyra married Laenor Velaryon. Rhaenyra had three sons with Laenor before he died, though some suspect they were all bastards (irrelevant as they all died without issue). Daemon had twin daughters with Laena: Baela Targaryen and Rhaena Targaryen, called "Rhaena of Pentos" because she grew up there during her father's campaigns. Baela and Rhaena were thus the granddaughters of Rhaenys, great-great-granddaughters of Jaehaerys I (through the female line).
  • Rhaenyra remarried to her uncle Daemon, producing Aegon III and Viserys II.
    • All three of Rhaenyra's older sons died without issue. Addam Velaryon died without issue, though Alyn Velaryon survived. Fate of Baela and Rhaena unknown (also, fates of any possible cousins resulting from Jaehaerys having nine children are unknown).
  • Aegon II usurped Rhaenyra, leading to the Dance of the Dragons.
    • Aegon II had three small children with his sister-wife Helaena: twins Jaehaerys and Jaehaerya, and Maelor. Jaehaerys, Helaena, Aemond, and Daeron all died during the Dance. Three year old Maelor presumably died because by the end of the two year long war, Aegon II had no male heirs. Aemond fathered a bastard child with Alys Rivers (heavily pregnant when he died), but fate unknown. Aegon II later died at the end of the Dance.
  • Aegon III - married Aegon II's daughter Jaehaerya to end the civil war, but she died without issue - ending the bloodline of Aegon II. Aegon III then remarried to Daenaera Velaryon, mother of his five children.
  • Daeron I was married but died without issue.
  • Baelor the Blessed refused to marry any of his three sisters and thus died without issue.
    • Of the "Maidens in the Tower", Rhaena became a septa and had no children; Elaena married three times (twice for politics, once for love) and had seven trueborn children, but later had an affair with Alyn Velaryon which produced two bastards, Jon and Jeyne Waters. Daena, meanwhile, had an affair with her first cousin Aegon IV which produced Daemon Blackfyre.
  • Viserys II - son of Rhaenyra, wife unknown. Father of Aegon IV, Naerys, and Aemon the Dragon-knight.
  • Aegon IV - Married to Naerys but had vast number of bastards, and nine official mistresses. Legitimized four bastards on his deathbed due to their noble blood: three sons (including Daemon Blackfyre) and one daughter.
  • Daeron II - son of Aegon IV though possibly fathered by Aemon. Married Myriah Martell to secure a political alliance with Dorne.

After Daeron II, the text doesn't mention who the wives of Targaryen kings were until Aerys II's sister-wife Rhaella (well, Aerys I married his sister Aelinor, but they died childless). So the queens of Maekar, Aegon V, and Jaehaerys II are unknown. Also gets complicated with all of the distant minor Targaryen cousins and such (Martin outright stated that Aerion Brightflame probably had bastard children).

Well, more info as it comes. But it will be good to finally figure out that mysterious generation of Jaehaerys I's children.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:25, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

Update Season 4Edit

Good, as expected "Lives of Four Kings" appeared at Joffrey's wedding, establishing Daeron I for the first time anywhere, and also Aegon IV and Daeron II in dialogue for the first time.

At this point, therefore, the only kings not established within the TV continuity on any level whatsoever are Aenys I and Viserys I.

Though maybe Viserys I is implied because there is a Viserys II, but no, that's too much. I do hope we get more mentions of him later, as we do have mentions of Rhaenyra and Aegon II.

Wait let's see now...we've got kings established in dialogue, or king's established in secondary stuff like screenshots or animated featurettes:

  • Aegon I - mentioned in dialogue
  • Maegor the Cruel - mentioned in dialogue
  • Jaehaerys I - mentioned in dialogue
  • Viserys I - not mentioned in anything
  • Aegon II - mentioned in dialogue (not by name, but enough in context)
    • Rhaenyra - mentioned in dialogue, by name
  • Aegon III - mentioned in dialogue (not by name, but in context of his mother)
  • Daeron I - mentioned by name
  • Baelor the Blessed - mentioned by name
  • Viserys II - established through on-screen text
  • Aegon IV - mentioned by name
  • Daeron II - mentioned by name
  • Aerys I - established through on-screen text
  • Maekar - mentioned in dialogue
  • Aegon V - mentioned in dialogue
  • Jaehaerys II - intentionally omitted
  • Aerys II - the Mad King

So let's see here...

Viserys II and Aerys I are only established by on-screen text but we took it as enough to keep articles on them.

Viserys I and Aenys I still haven't been introduced into the continuity at all.

Part of me worries that they might cut Aenys I entirely just to simplify it to Maekar, even though I don't see any real reason to do that (they barely mention Maegor on screen, why simplify something only book fans would recognize?) -- The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:01, April 14, 2014 (UTC)

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