Although, when reading the books I pronounced the name "Ol-enna", it appears in the previews/behind the scenes vlogs for S3, the name is pronounced "Olly-ana". Anyone care to comment?22.214.171.124 22:50, February 4, 2013 (UTC)
- They've only pronounced it two times in the vlogs; once Rigg sort of said it like "Olly-ana" but that's her natural british accent; the more recent trailer has Tyrion in-character say her name, and it sounds more like "Oh-lenna". This will get sorted out once the first episode airs, or if we get a character-focus featurette before that.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:42, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
Let's discuss the quote. I'm not really a fan of having a quite long part of conversation as an opening quote. In general, it should be pretty concise: brief, yet including all important information about the character. Something that describes the character as a whole. But it should be brief, one or two sentences.
Now, I disagree with the User:The Dragon Demands when he said that Olenna's just humoring Cersei when she says: "We mothers do what we can to keep our sons from the grave. But they do seem to yearn for it. We shower them with good sense, and it slides off like rain off a wing." Sure Olenna is talking about Cersei's relationship with Joffrey, but the line also describes Olenna's feelings about male rulers in general and how she feels about women's status in the realm. If anyone has a better quote than that they are welcome to replace it. Or better yet, discuss it here. --Martell (talk) 17:45, April 24, 2013 (UTC)
- Well I didn't mean to shut you down there; I hope we get a better quote in Olenna's upcoming confrontation with Tywin (as seen in the trailers).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:51, April 24, 2013 (UTC)
- Hope so. I'm not 100% happy about the "we mothers" quote, I must admit, but it definitely works better than a part of conversation. Like I said, if we get a better quote, fine, but at the meantime I would like to replace all the "conversation quotes" with reasonably short lines if possible. --Martell (talk) 18:21, April 24, 2013 (UTC)
Olenna doesn't really dismiss Varys in season3 when they discuss Baelish and his plans. They both are seen walking further down the garden path as the scene changes; leaving the viewer to perhaps wonder what they said next.
Olenna's betrothal revealedEdit
News is filtering in over the internets from the world book. I've been trying to be sparing about this kind of thing, just so much as it affects the TV show. At any rate, this is one of the specific things that are not a grey area, but clearly affect a question we had about an in-TV show comment.
- First, I genuinely have no idea how to reconcile what TV information has been stated so far (because the TV writers didn't know this background)
- Second...cutting Jaehaerys II Targaryen from the TV continuity, back in Season 1 (when Aemon stated that Aegon V was the father of the Mad King Aerys II, not his grandfather)...led to the "Butterfly effect" of later problems.
- Third...planning far ahead, if we ever get a Tales of Dunk and Egg prequel series, this would affect the later seasons. Yes, the current novellas cover the first years of a character narrative meant to last a full 50 years, and these would be like the final seasons...but they're among the most important because it's how older characters like Barristan, Tywin, and Olenna tie it all together.
Olenna Redwyne was originally betrothed to Aegon V Targaryen's third and youngest son, Prince Daeron. "Daeron" was a very common name in the Targaryen dynasty, there were a half-dozen major characters with that name.
Aegon V had three sons: Duncan "the Small" (named for Aegon V's great friend Ser Duncan the Tall), Jaehaerys II, and Daeron. Aegon V thought that the Targaryen incest practices did more harm than good (both physically and for the realm, it seems) so he wanted to marry his sons into the other Great Houses, to strengthen his political ties (Aegon V was a populist reformer with pro-smallfolk, anti-aristocracy policies, which made commoners love him as a reformer but unpopular with the wealthy and powerful). So hey, end all of the inbreeding (which also antagonized the Faith of the Seven) while also building up some political ties they needed. The problem was that Aegon V had himself married for love (to Betha Blackwood), so he felt he couldn't deny his sons the same choice without looking like a hypocrite, and none of them agreed to the political matches he had planned.
First, Duncan the Small (called "The Prince of Dragonflies), despite being crown "prince, became smitten with a commoner known as Jenny of Oldstones. So he married a commoner. Duncan the Small had to abdicate his place in the line of succession, giving up his crown and his realm for the love of a common girl. The singers and romantic poets absolutely love this story, Sansa Stark was infatuated with it (notice that Sansa in the TV series often wears dragonfly-themed jewelry...) Anyway, Duncan the Small later died along with Aegon V and Duncan the Tall in the great fire at the Tragedy of Summerhall in the year 259 AL, about forty years before Season 1 of Game of Thrones (Rhaegar Targaryen, Jaehaerys II's grandson through Aerys II, was born that same night).
Second was Jaehaerys II Targaryen. A good man of sound mind but a weak and sickly body. After his father died he only ruled for three years, but Barristan remembers that he ruled well, rising to the occasion to lead the realm during the Fifth Blackfyre Rebellion (the War of the Ninepenny Kings), during which Brynden "Blackfish" Tully, Barristan Selmy, and a young Tywin Lannister won great renown. Barristan personally killed Maelys Blackfyre and was rewarded with a spot on the Kingsguard.
Anyway, the problem was that...when Jaehaerys II "married for love", it was actually to his own sister, Princess Shaera Targaryen. Aegon V had always discouraged the idea of continuing the Targaryen incest practices. Maybe it's that whole phenomenon of "dating who your father hates is exciting" and "the forbidden fruit is the most alluring"....inverted and all twisted up weird-like. It was actually a passionate love story; they eloped when they were 15 and 14, sneaking out to be married in secret, and by the time the king found out they'd already consummated the marriage. This was after Duncan the Small's incident, so Aegon V didn't disown Jaehaerys II...he kind of needed a male heir at this point, continuing the old practice wasn't quite as much of an affront as marrying a commoner (though it wrecked the next marriage alliance Aegon V wanted to put together), and later on Jaehaerys II and Shaera had (at least) two children: Aerys II and Rhaelle. Hypocritically, Jaehaerys II later forced his son and daughter into an arranged marriage to each other...because he'd heard a prophecy that "the prince who was promised" would be born of their union....
But here's the important part, now that you have all of this context:
Olenna Redwyne was arranged to marry Aegon V's third son, Prince Daeron...but Daeron was apparently a homosexual. It turns out that neither of them wanted to go through with the arranged marriage.
Daeron Targaryen's true companion was Ser Jeremy Norridge, a dashing young knight from the Reach. House Norridge is a relatively minor noble House from the Reach. The two had been inseparable since they were young squires at Highgarden (so this was a long-term, committed relationship). Basically Daeron and Jeremy were the Renly and Loras of their generation.
Daeron and Olenna were actually arranged to marry since both of them were nine years old, but when Daeron was 18 years old in 246 AL, he publicly repudiated the match. (not sure how this matches with TV stuff - but just because their parents agreed to the match when they were both nine doesn't mean they ever physically met in person before they were both 18, right?)
So here's the basic setup:
- Jaehaerys II Targaryen is stuck in an arranged betrothal (to some girl), and his brother Daeron is betrothed to Olenna Redwyne. Their sister Shaera Targaryen is betrothed to Luthor Tyrell. None of the three liked these betrothals, nor did Olenna.
- Jaehaerys II and Shaera are secretly having a passionate love affair with each other. Daeron is secretly a homosexual and in a relationship with Jeremy Norridge.
- Shaera elopes with Jaehaerys II, breaking her betrothal to Luthor Tyrell.
- Daeron Targaryen (perhaps put up to it by Olenna and/or citing that both of his older brothers got to refuse a betrothal), publicly renounces his planned marriage to Olenna Redwyne -- secretly so he can continue his relationship with Jeremy Norridge.
- With Olenna freed from her betrothal to Daeron, and Luthor Tyrell no longer betrothed to Shaera, Olenna is free to marry Luthor Tyrell.
So...Shaera elopes with Brother 1, breaking off her betrothal to Luthor, then Brother 2 disavows betrothal to Olenna, after which Luthor and Olenna - both "spurned" a chance at marrying into the royal line, marry each other.
...I strongly suspect that Olenna intrigued a lot of this with the other teenagers.
It also sheds a lot of light on how Olenna reacted to the situation with Loras and Renly, plus her protege Margaery's reaction to Loras/Renly.
They say that Olenna "did everything she could to get out of the marriage" -- but maybe she wasn't "repulsed" at all...or even, that it's just what she says in public.
Whatever the case, the breakup with Olenna occured in 246 AL. Aegon V died at Summerhall in 259 AL. Sadly, only five years after the breakup, both Prince Daeron and Jeremy Norridge died fighting side by side in a battle against a rebel lord, together in death. It was in a rebellion by "the rat, the hawk, and the pig" but it didn't specify who (it wasn't a Blackfyre Rebellion).
What I can say is that I'm kind of tantalized now to see this adapted some day and find out...what exactly were the machinations going on in Olenna's day? The intrigues that led to this shakeup?
Also, Luthor's younger brother Moryn Tyrell also had a son named Luthor (for his uncle)...and this Ser Luthor Tyrell later married one "Elyn Norridge".
Whatever the case, the TV show just introduced a whole lot of discrepancies into the "TV continuity" of which I have no effing idea how to reconcile.
Unless...we simply say that Olenna was lying?
This wouldn't be the first time personal or family history differs from the books in order to make a point about something. How many invented cousins are there in the TV show, each to give some flavor to some story someone's telling? I don't see this differently. The only difference is in this case we got more details from the TV continuity first, instead of the other way around, so we weren't sure if it was made up. You say you don't know how to reconcile these clearly different continuities, but I don't think we should even try, because they're clearly different. "She's lying" is too much of a head-canon. So, we should just leave it as it is in the "background" section for Olenna, and for the other off-screen characters involved, and explain the difference in the "In the books" section, as always. Well, that's my two cents, anyway —ArticXiongmao (talk) 09:32, October 27, 2014 (UTC)