- I was also expecting that, maybe it was just to bait us. Then again, they might retroactively explain next episode that she was in on it, but that she didn't know she'd die.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:57, June 3, 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah, something is strange with her. That is why I put her in the poll question for this week. QueenBuffy 03:49, June 3, 2013 (UTC)
I was so grieved I cried for days not for the people who died at the Red Wedding, but for Arya and Sansa. Their both going to have to face what happened. Sansa getting the worse end of it because Joffery is probably going to remind her of it everyday :-( Junebugg666 (talk) 12:56, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
I didn't expect such a loveable character like Rob Stark to die like that. Especially after all those preparations for the attack on the Lanisters. One thing is for certain, in the Game of Thrones noone is safe.Emilia Da'len (talk) 22:02, June 13, 2013 (UTC)
Individual quotes for subsections are good, as per Wookiepedia; actually, I'm in favor of doing this on most articles if a subsection has a good quote that can be associated with it (provided that we don't put in too many). But the events of the Red Wedding are obviously important enough to merit such treatment.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:24, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
Hey, I just wanted to ask wether you could put in the fact that before the archers fired the crossbow bolts one of the Freys stabbed Talisa (because that happened seconds before and distracted Robb so he couldn't hide or do anything to defend himself). I would have edited it myself but as a non- registered user I am not allowed to.
184.108.40.206 20:40, July 13, 2013 (UTC)
I will be blunt: we don't give a shit about Talisa as she's a horribly written invention of the TV writers. Robb's wife in the books, Jeyne Westerling, doesn't have much presence in the books, but she is still enjoyable. However, Robb didn't quite marry her out of love, so much as he had sex with her out of grief when he heard his brothers had died. The next morning, because like his father he puts honor before reason, he married Jeyne to preserve her honor. This was about Robb's devotion to honor, not love. The TV writers pretty much openly said that they changed it so that it was about love, not honor....that is, making up a cheesy romance which simply didn't exist in the books.
Does the fact that it didn't exist in the books mean that it is bad? Absolutely not. What makes it bad was that it was simply poorly written. Things which the TV show invents tend to poorly fit into the overall story, because it's a complex interlocking narrative.
So you raise a valid point: we barely mention Talisa. Why? Because we're trying to pretend she doesn't exist. I did write up a full description page of "Characters who are significantly changed between books and TV series"...but even I haven't had the...mental fortitude, to face the daunting task of writing up Talisa's article. This is on the to-do list but I have been avoiding it.
You see, the Red Wedding was the climactic event that ended the first third of the overall story. Jeyne Westerling doesn't even die at the Red Wedding, but is still alive and well in the books. I actually felt comforted by Madden's explanation of why she dies; a step *away* from the romantic trope crap that Martin himself hates; they didn't want the audience to harbor romantic illusions that she would live to give birth to a son who would live to avenge Robb. So put another way, the general idea that "she dies at the Red Wedding" was a good idea.
Nonetheless, we shouldn't stress "and OMG Talisa got stabbed!" -- this gives her too much importance within the storyline, when she was really a minor character. Marriages in Westeros are blatantly not made for romantic reasons and Robb only married her in the books to preserve her honor. In short, she's a sleeve that Robb shoves his cock in when he's having sex at worst, and at best, Jeyne Westerling is a brood mare. This was not a great epic romance.
Let that sink in.
Someone trying to have her ride the coat-tails of the Red Wedding itself? Hey, while we're at it, let's have Talisa KILL JOFFREY! The writers fell in love with their little creation.
They wave this aside as "we need to show what Robb was doing off-screen". The problem of course is that George R.R. Martin himself stated at World-Con last year that creating "Talisa" was a two-step process: First, actually showing her on-screen, and even Martin felt this was a good idea. Second, however, was the decision to make Robb have a romance subplot and marry her out of love instead of honor, which wrecked the whole point of her. That shoots down the crap handwave explanation they've given us so far. So Martin begged them to change her name to "Talisa" to wash his hands of her, to get the token dignity of having the other writers admit that they changed "Jeyne Westerling" so much she isn't really Jeyne anymore.
On top of this, they bizarrely put too much focus on the Karstarks turning against Robb....when LOSING THE FREY ALLIANCE was even worse, cost them more men AND their strategic passage back to the North...yet within the episode, Bolton and other lords openly address her as "my Queen" and thus his marriage, wrecking the Frey alliance, is treated as some sort of inconsequential background event; instead, we should have dramatically seen Frey soldiers riding out of camp. Thus even the implication from the books is gone; once people find out Robb married someone else and broke the Frey alliance, they openly call him an idiot and he has no real defense against this. Even sodding *Jaime Lannister* of all people, when he's at Harrenhal and Bolton tells him that Robb married a political nobody and thus wrecked the Frey alliance, openly expresses real sympathy for the poor idiot Robb, softly utter that Robb won the war on the battlefield but has already lost it in the marriage bed (and how right he was).
I bring this up with such vitriol because of that discussion which started in the forum today about Talisa's family.
In short: the only explanation the writers ever gave about making Talisa a Volentene, not a Braavosi, and a "Maegyr" on top of that....is that they had just read A Dance With Dragons, and Volantis appears prominently in that book.
The problem, of course, which I dare anyone to argue against, is that the writers didn't really pay attention to anything ABOUT Volantis. It has slavery and it has a bridge, that much they got right.
Otherwise: Volantis is notable for its extreme segregation, with five sixths of the population slave, and the remainder are the elite nobles -- who *do not even live in the same part of the city*. Thus there is no way Talisa would ever dramatically see a slave drowning or whatever. Moreover, this segregation means that the Volantene nobility are Valyrian - they look white, with white-blonde hair and brightly colored eyes. Basically, they look like Daenerys Targaryen. The same goes for Lys, though that's more of a blonde-hair blue eyes mixture. A better fit to the actress would have been Myr or something, which is famous for having dark hair and olive-colored skin. Frankly, I was willing to look the other way on this as we don't have a definitive list of all Volantene nobility.
While I'm on the subject I will address her name: you see, George R.R. Martin pretty much said they changed the character of Jeyne Westerling so drastically that he begged them to change her name to something else, to acknowledge how different she was. "Jeyne Westerling" isn't a name from the Free Cities, so they made up "Talisa Maegyr". I actually think, seriously, that they picked the last name "Maegyr" simply because it was a known surname from Volantis in the books, without pausing to consider, "wait, are we implying that she's a member of the ruling family?"
It's sort of....as if some local TV show in Belarus wanted to invent an American character, so they asked themselves "wait, what's a good American-sounding name? I know, "Obama"!"....without pausing to realize that American viewers would say, "wait, are you implying she's one of THE Obamas?" Another example would be...imagine if the story were set in the Free Cities, not Westeros, and they wanted to invent a character from "The North", so they just picked the name "Stark" because it sounds "Northern"....without pausing to realize that this implies that the character is a member of THE House Stark.
Thus even today, after Season 3 is over, we have *no frelling idea* if "Talisa Maegyr" is meant to be a member of THE "Maegyr family" from Volantis, a family of triarchs. They simply didn't think out what the implications of picking such a name were: I seriously think they just pulled a Volantis-style name from the index.
In short, they didn't know anything about "Volantis" as it is depicted in A Dance With Dragons, nor did they think out the practical results of this. At no point did making Talisa from Volantis, instead of from Myr, actually serve to better introduce Volantis to the narrative.
Think about that.
In summary, Jeyne didn't die at the Red Wedding in the books; while killing here there was actually a good idea for the TV show, the actual direction/pacing made a bit too much focus on her in the TV show, which we should actively try to downplay as much as possible. It's the equivalent of...I dunno, having the shadow creature that was birthed by Melisandre kill BOTH Renly and Talisa in the same episode. It just strains the scene.
So I guess what sort of happened is that we were tacitly refusing to pay attention to any Talisa scenes because they were increasingly awful, the result being her wiki-pages haven't gotten much attention.
Mastermind of the Red WeddingEdit
Was it not Roose Bolton's idea to kill Robb Stark and the rest of the leadership of the Northern Army? Because they were beginning to lose the war, and Lord Bolton wanted to secure his house's future. Some say it was Tywin Lannister's idea, but from what I can tell, it was Roose Bolton, who just discreetly communicated his idea to Tywin and Walder Frey, the former offering assurances for Bolton's intended betrayal because it came at no cost to himself, and the latter, because he's notoriously self-interested and untrustworthy. --Fenrir51 (talk) 14:22, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
What specific citation do you have that it was Roose Bolton's original idea? And not Walder Frey's? Or Tywin?
In short, the books don't actually explain the blow-by-blow of who originally came up with the idea to betray Robb, but it was collaborative effort between Tywin, Roose, and Walder. That's what all of those letters Tywin was writing earlier in the season were for (they were correspondence back and forth with the Freys and Boltons). We don't know if Tywin suggested betrayal first, or if Walder and Roose came up with the idea and got Tywin's approval. Kind of a combination of events, as they all saw that Robb was doomed after he foolishly threw away his marriage-alliance to House Frey, and after the Lannisters smashed the Baratheons at the Blackwater and allied with the Tyrells. So by around episode 1 of Season 3, the war was already lost. There's even a point in the books when Catelyn says their most realistic option at this point is surrender on generous terms, but Robb insists he'd rather self-consciously fight to the death.
At any rate, it was a lot of back-and-forth correspondence between Tywin, Roose, and Walder. The specific idea to ambush Robb's army at his uncle's own wedding at the Twins, shamelessly breaking Guest Right? Not sure who decided that the betrayal would take this specific shape, or when.
Tywin is "the mastermind" because Roose and Walder answer to him. Tyrion himself points out that Walder Frey is a coward who would never have done this without assurances from the Lannisters that they would not be punished for breaking Guest Right, and would indeed be rewarded for the betrayal.
I mean it all filters down the chain of command. The books make it clear that even among the Freys, it was Walder who gave the go-ahead to betray the Starks while they were guests at his own table during a wedding....but it was Lothar Frey who planned out the fine details. Lothar is Walder's right hand planner, chief steward of the Twins, his father's closest advisor. So it was Walder's idea but Lothar planned out the fine details (disguising mercenaries as musicians, etc.) It's also said that Lothar, along with Roose, were the ones who came up with the idea to use The Rains of Castamere as the signal to attack (the TV sort of misses this; it wasn't just a taunt, but signaled the troops in the camps outside to begin the attack). So there are all varying levels of "Mastermind", but Tywin is top of the heap because Roose and Walder looked to him for approval. They're all co-masterminds.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:56, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
- I've never read the books, so I'm only recounting what I saw from the TV version. Roose's men recaptured Jaime Lannister, but soon decided to send him back to King's Landing to gain Tywin's trust.
- I find it unlikely that Tywin would send secret messages to individual lords in Robb's army, because he had no way of knowing if they'd comply with him. Plus, the possibility that it could potentially betray the strategy before it could get off the ground. So the idea would have to come from someone who stood to lose if the war was going badly for them. It was initially going badly for the Lannisters, but they had a stronger fall back position, while Robb's army was basically trapped in the Riverlands, their homeland being overrun by the Ironborn, and the route home controlled by a man whose offer of a marital alliance was snubbed.
- I'll grant you that Tywin may have been the one bring Walder Frey in on the plan, but I'm sure that the basic plot originated with Roose Bolton. --Fenrir51 (talk) 20:19, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
- "I find it unlikely that Tywin would send secret messages to individual lords in Robb's army, because he had no way of knowing if they'd comply with him."...No. Consider that quite simply...what was Tywin risking, if anything?
- Robb knows that Tywin wants to kill him by any means necessary. Now lets suppose, for the sake of argument, that Roose and Walder received letters from Tywin instructing them to betray the Starks....but that they instead chose to ignore them. In that case, what would Tywin lose? He didn't put any soldiers in the field, didn't risk anything. He just gave promises that if Robb's own bannermen turned on him, he would pardon them and indeed reward them. I mean, what possible backlash would happen if it was "discovered before it got off the ground" as you say? Robb already knows Tywin wants him deaed. Tywin risked nothing for them, didn't move Lannister troops into a risky coordinated attack or anything.
- Tywin could have sent letters and risked nothing other than promises. Either way, the "writing was on the wall" so its sort of like all three realized at the same time what needed to happen. Roose's final chapter in the second novel has him and his captains remarking that after the Battle of the Blackwater and with the Frey alliance ruined, the Lannisters are clearly winning and Robb is losing. This is told from Arya's perspective so she doesn't realize the implications of Roose's words, that he intends to betray Robb. But it is irrelevant; they all sort of came up with it together.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 06:06, July 20, 2013 (UTC)