Talk:Game of Thrones: Season 5

Cast Question

I know it's already been reported that some of the supporting cast for present/past seasons will be upgraded to starring roles and/or have been signed for Season 5.  Do we want to go ahead and add these or do we want to wait until Season 4 is over as it's kind of spoilerish to say that so and so will be in season 5?  TheUnknown285 (talk) 22:21, April 8, 2014 (UTC)

I'd wait until Season 4 is over and we have some more specifics.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 06:48, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

Can we add Stephen Dillane as Stannis Baratheon to the starring cast? Comic-Con GoT part 2 Dan and Dave confirm Stannis (at 7:00)

​Season 5 Spoilers (No actual spoilers in the question)

In regards to the returning cast, is it not a spoiler to say that people like Gendry and the actor who played Jaqen will be returning?

...We don't even know if he's returning.

But you should always assume that living characters can return.

For that matter, dead characters can return in flashbacks, i.e. Eddard and/or Catelyn have flashback scenes in later books.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:19, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

I realise that they can return, but in the returning starring cast section, Joe Dempsie and Tom Wlaschiha's names are there, suggesting that they will return in season 5. Not only (to me, opinions and whatnot) is this a spoiler, but is it wise to include their names if we don't know if they will be returning? - Son Of Fire (talk) 03:14, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

No. This is not a spoiler. You should tacitly assume that living characters can appear in any season, and not be surprised that they will appear next season. If anything, it's a disappointment when they don't reappear.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:50, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

That said Gendry should still not be listed here, regardless of potential spoiler issues, as it is pure speculation. He wasn't in season 4 and the youtube video which keeps being used as a source does not actually say he is returning. In fact when directly asked (at 4:15) Joe Dempsie says "Who knows". There is no reason to include him when other main characters such as Sansa who are clearly returning to the show based on the set up in recent episodes are not listed until there is actual evidence of their return. Rachel P 03:29, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

Imogen

Given that they are casting Maggy the Frog, they're probably casting Young Cersei. The citation for this is the link to WinterIsComing.net's views.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:10, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

Directors

There are so many new directors in Season 5. Plus, with the departure of Michelle MacLaren, this is the first time since Season 2 in which there is no female director (nor was there one in Season 1).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:58, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

Sellsword Castings

I have a question to the Daenerys storyarc in Essos, wouldn't it be necessary to cast actors for portraying sellswords? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "Second Sons" would play a major role according to the books, under their new commanders Brown Ben Plumm and Kasporio the Cunning, also the "Windblown" with "The Tattered Prince" would appear. --Exodianecross (talk) 02:27, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

Possibly, but they have cut out large sections of Daenerys's storyline. Brown Ben didn't even appear last season.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:17, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

I know, but the producers have shown that they cut out persons because of the costs and let them later appear if necessary! The important parts of Plumm and Kasporio would be their new allegiance with the Yunkai'i and the meeting with Tyrion and Jorah! The same for "The Windblown"! --Exodianecross (talk) 08:27, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

San Diego Comic-Con is this weekend. We normally get some casting news out of that convention anyway. Let's see what they announce.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:03, July 25, 2014 (UTC)

Allright, then we'll see! And I've almost forgotten, the "Golden Company" would appear too, according to the books! --Exodianecross (talk) 01:10, July 25, 2014 (UTC)

Any news about the sellswords? Perhaps this storyarc that include Brown Ben, Kasporio, The Tattered Prince and the Golden Company won't take part until Season 6? It's possible that the focus is now on Dorne and the High Sparrow! --Exodianecross (talk) 01:23, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

Adaptation

From the page... "Ultimately, judging by casting news of characters that only appear at the end of A Dance With Dragons, it seems Benioff and Weiss have opted to adapt the fourth and most of the fifth books in a single season, presumably by simplifying and cutting some story lines, which would mean Season 5 will reach the end of all source material published as of 2014."

Which characters would these be? The only possible match I can see amongst the announced characters is Yezzan zo Qaggaz who appears mid A Dance With Dragons and is mentioned earlier in the book. All the other new characters that have been announced are either from previous books or don't actually appear in the books (eg Trystane). If the remaining source material were done as two seasons it's still entirely plausible that all these characters could appear by late season 5 still. Making an assumption like this based on one character is also flawed as story lines in the show often move at different paces to each other than they do in the books. So while one storyline could be further ahead others would be behind. I'm not saying if they will or won't do 1/2 seasons with what's currently published, but simply that the argument presented here is flawed (the use of the word ultimately doesn't help either).101.171.42.170 05:05, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

I have rephrased the section slightly to make it more accurate. Rachel P 04:30, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

Could it be that the Dorne Storyline will feature in Season 5 and the Iron Island storyline and other missing characters will feature in Season 6, this could also dig into Winds of Winter finishing Winds of Winter in Season 7. Then 1 long or 2 Seasons for Dream of Spring. I expect they could do this because they don't want to upset GRRM's publicist and he can get the books out first. 20:10 September 7  (KZH)

Kevan Lannister?

Will Ian Gelder return in his role as Kevan Lannister? After Tywins death he would play a major role. --Exodianecross (talk) 15:34, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

I'm hoping that both Kevan and Lancel will return in S5, but the latter is particularly important, and with the inclusion of the High Sparrow I'm sure he will be back, as he plays a major role in that story arc.-- 16:00, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

Minor? I don't think so! According to that what I've red in the books he will play a significant and more important part! After Tywin's death he's the last one of the "brothers", Tywin, Tygett and Gerion! The last ones weren't mentioned throughout the series because they are death or disappeared, before the series started. But in the books Kevan will be called to become Lord-Protector to the realm for Tommen, and he wanted to send Cersei home to Casterly Rock! I don't want to spoiler and hope that what I've written is allright! --Exodianecross (talk) 16:30, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

Where did I write that Kevan has a minor role?-- 16:45, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I'm sorry, my mistake! I've red wrong! --Exodianecross (talk) 16:56, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

Characters not appearing

There are wide reports that Hodor, Meera, and possibly Bran will not appear this season. Should we note this on the page? TheUnknown285 (talk) 02:42, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

It already has been noted at the bottom of the "Production" section. - Son Of Fire (talk) 03:54, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

Hmm... if Bran and Hodor aren't in Season 5, I wonder if it'll be like Feast for Crows, with about half the main characters not appearing in Season 5, and then the missing half appearing in Season 6 with most of the season 5 characters not appearing or only having 1-2 chapters? It'll be interesting for a season with 0 Danaerys and 0 Tyrion... might hurt the ratings a little :P DRAEVAN13 13:17, September 5, 2014 (UTC)

Bran was confirmed to appear in Season 5 by Isaac Hempstead-Wright during an interview with On Demand Entertainment, released on the 4th of September. --Fenrir51 (talk) 16:43, September 5, 2014 (UTC)

Isaac also stated during an interview at Comic Con In San Diego this past July that he was definitely due to appear in Game of Thrones for Season 5. I would imagine that, as part of the starring cast, he would know his own situation better than Kristian Nairn. The annoying thing is, though, that various media outlets are still reporting about Hempstead-Wright's alleged cut from the series as if it's actual news, even though it was based on nothing but fan speculation, stemming from an offhand comment by Kristian Nairn. --Fenrir51 (talk) 10:49, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

An online article by Entertainment Weekly about the  "Top 8 Misconceptions of GoT season 5" just came out. They still insist Bran won't be in next year. It isn't as though Isaac Hempstead-Wright's comments to the contrary are hard to find. I swear, every time this account appears online, they never even cite the interviews where Isaac Hempstead-Wright said he will be appearing. Do journalists not believe in checking their sources anymore? --Fenrir51 (talk) 23:38, October 22, 2014 (UTC)

Yikes. They also said that "the producers have indicated that the Iron Islands will be absent from Season 5"....without citing ANY sources at all. They're just wild mass guessing, like the rest of us! Yeah a lot of us FEAR that, but we have no idea what's going on.

Similarly they're reporting the LS stuff as fact. God, I hope the producers are playing coy when they say "we're not sure if that surprise will actually be in the TV show"...I thought they just moved it to the Season 5 finale, for the sake of having a strong climax to Season 5 (which sort of makes sense, it kind of ends at a midpoint and they want another Red Wedding/Tywin death scale event).

It's not even like they have to do "actual work" - they could just read this off of the wiki page here.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:32, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

The article is wrong about Bran, he seems all to sure about LSH being cut despite it not being confirmed by D&D (not to the public, anyway; EW does get plenty of exclusives), and generally it's a poorly written piece, mostly because it's completely unsourced. However, that doesn't mean Hibberd made the Iron Islands stuff up. When asked about how he knew about it, he commented:

"I asked the producers last season if they were doing Dorne and Iron Islands in season 5. They said they were doing one of them. Later they announced they were doing Dorne… I’m not saying S5 won’t have any Iron Islands scenes, only that my understanding is the big book 4 subplot isn’t a part of S5."

So, the Iron Island plot as we know it is gone, that much is confirmed. Hibberd may have gone overboard by assuming rumors as confirmations (and some of them were dismissed rumors!), but this is information he acquired directly; he may be careless, but he hasn't lied before.

I mean, as far as I was concerned Victarion was gone the minute that Daario saved 93 Meereenese ships during the Conquest of Meereen, exactly the same number with which Victarion departed towards Meereen. That cannot possibly be a coincidence. I had hopes for Euron, and honestly I still have them for the sixth season (though I admit it may be wishful thinking.) As for the characters that have already been introduced, my speculation is that Balon's story will be finally resolved and Yara's role will be at least similar to the books. If Euron is definitely gone for good, maybe Yara does become Queen of the Iron Islands in the show. She would be a much more valuable hostage for Stannis, but besides that it wouldn't necessarily change much.--ArticXiongmao (talk) 12:38, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

I just saw what Hibberd said...crud.

What the hell are Benioff and Weiss doing? At one point I just want a single, honest interview where instead of self-praise, they appeal for sympathy, and just point out "guys, we can't afford to hire all of these actors for all seven kingdoms, then put them on hold for an entire season"...instead of trumpeting this as the "good" choice.

...You're reading way too much into that Daario/Meereen navy stray comment. I hope.

We're reaching that awkward crunch period where they're fighting over seven or eight seasons...NO, they did not confirm seven seasons. Benioff and Weiss started saying "seven" after saying "eight" since Season 3, because they're not sure now and want it to seem intentional if they only get seven. What Elyo said on Westeros.org made a lot of sense: they grew terrified that they'd only get seven seasons, so they started condensing certain plotlines in "worst case scenario" mode...BUT, as Elyo said, fundamentally they won't make a final decision about seven or eight seasons until season 5 is over. By season 6 they really have to make decisions with finality.

Again, I compare this to how they originally phrased the comment about Stannis having "no sons" in Season 2, with a lot of thought into that line, because they *feared* they'd have to cut Shireen, but wanted to leave it ambiguous enough that they could later say she exists in Season 3. Similarly, they've never announced with ironclad finality, "Loras is the only Tyrell son"....because they kind of want to work Willas into a later season.

Thus my fears for Arianne Martell, and the ironborn: they're the highest rated TV show in HBO history....but they're not treating an eight season as a guarantee? So they're diminishing Season 5 in the process? I mean there's something to be said for not counting your chicks before they've hatched but.....it's just counterproductive now.

So the problem is that some book 4/5 storylines are moving ahead, while others are kind of backburnered...but not eliminated. They're in a "wait and see" mode but they can't do that forever.

Granted, there's so much material that they can just focus on the "King's Landing" stuff but....realistically, how can they keep a storyline in "standby" for so long? The ironborn were "treading water" (haha) since the end of Season 2. They don't want to write them out entirely, but they're afraid to devote a lot of time to them.

Frankly, I wouldn't be *too* upset if they back-burnered the Kingsmoot....so long as we have, say, Balon doing his thing, and then Yara acting as an ironborn envoy to King's Landing...really need that. That point in the books when Tywin confirms what even *Theon* realized: attacking the North *and* declaring independence from the Iron Throne was idiotic; why would the Lannisters reward the Greyjoys for attacking the Starks...when that's what they *should* have done anyway, had they stayed loyal to the Iron Throne?

So they can postpone the internal politics stuff, but are we just going to have another Season 4, with absolutely NO mention of the ironborn as a political entity? (The most we really got on that front was Tywin mentioning in passing to Oberyn that they're still fighting an ironborn rebellion to the west).

So the more I think on it/analyze it, I think that if the producers wanted to outright "cut" this stuff they'd have made more drastic changes, but they're now sort of "on the fence" waiting for confirmation that they will be renewed through Season 8....thus they forced several subplots into "standby mode", with clear "opt-outs" (like the Shireen situation)....such as not casting Arianne just yet but being deliberately vague about the structure of the Martell family in the TV series.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:52, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

In light of the recent news where show producers David Benioff and Dan Weiss have stated their intention of dropping Bran Stark from the series, I still maintain that it was irresponsible of the certain media outlets to claim that it was "confirmed", even though neither a video or a full transcript of Kristian Nairn's  Yahoo Australia interview has gone public. It actually took the producers two months to confirm this themselves, which may suggest that, until recently, they hadn't quite decided to drop Bran from the new season. --Fenrir51 (talk) 19:17, November 5, 2014 (UTC)

Characters in the plot summary

The plot summary probably should mention all major storylines, if not necessarily each and every major character. The geographic structure works, but I'm at a loss for a way to include Brienne into this. I simply don't know where to add her in, but she is a major character with her own distinct storyline. The difference with characters like Jaime is that, while he is a major character too, he's as of Season 4 part of the King's Landing storyline, so it makes sense not to explicitly mention him. But Brienne has her own thing going on with Pod, yet... I don't know where to include her in the summary. Any ideas? —ArticXiongmao (talk) 10:39, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, is she not looking for Sansa? Maybe just add "Sansa Stark, with Brienne on her tail, gets more and more involved in the schemes of Littlefinger". Then again I'm really not fond of using more that two commas in a sentence but I realise it's not incorrect to do so. - Son Of Fire (talk) 12:27, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

Well, it'll have to do for now. —ArticXiongmao (talk) 13:00, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

The High Sparrow and Lancel

A recent post on the watchersonthewall.com gives us our first look at Jonathan Pryce on set as the High Sparrow, and also shows Eugene Simmons in his new costume as "Brother Lancel". [1] TK-255 (talk) 11:25, October 6, 2014 (UTC)

There is no Brother Lancel in the photos. Eugene Simmons is not there, as far as I can see, and that's not what The Watchers on the Wall reported. The *comments* of the article, however, do include a link to the Westeros.org forum in which someone claimed, among other things, to have a description of a scene with Lancel. 85.84.247.209 12:18, October 6, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Lancel can be seen in the last few photos of the steps. He's wearing a robe simmilar to that of the High Sparrow, and has his hair cropped short. See Eugene Simmons twitter profile for proof that it's him. TK-255 (talk) 12:30, October 6, 2014 (UTC)

If you mean the guy to the left in this picture (http://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/IMG_6558.jpg), that doesn't look much like him, and if that's his haircut, he must've gotten a new one because it looks way shorter than in the Twitter pics. It MIGHT be him... but how do you know? Why did you take this as a given? It certainly has not been reported anywhere. 85.84.247.209 13:15, October 6, 2014 (UTC)

Yes him. Watch Eugene's ALS Ice Bucket Challenge video. His hair is cropped close to the skull, just like in the pics. And it must be true because the user who posted the set report to Westeros.rg did so days before these pics were released on wic.net. He accurately described the High Sparrows costume, the scene of Tommen and the gold cloaks on the steps... all posted three days before photos showing those exact things became available. TK-255 (talk) 13:37, October 6, 2014 (UTC)

Watchersonthewall.com have released their own set report from a trusted source, and it matches Tristan Snow's exactly. So, yes, it seems like he was telling the truth.--Ser Patrek, the Wolfskinner 09:22, October 10, 2014 (UTC)

Ah, Eugene Simon confirmed on his own Twitter account last week that he's busy filming for Spring 2015, that settles it: https://twitter.com/Eugene_Simon/status/520634985586622465 --The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:25, October 12, 2014 (UTC)

No Arianne Martell and Kevan Lannister?

Could it be that Arianne and Kevan were cut out of Season 5 and will appear in Season 6? Because of the circumstance that Season 5 is filmed after two books with a simoultanously story arc? Then it could be possible to let them appear later! --Exodianecross (talk) 14:23, October 9, 2014 (UTC)

Word out on the street is that they may have recast Kevan in Season 5. Which is for the best, really: the Greatjon Umber debacle was that the cast member had to take a season off...then another. The first time? Maybe, work around his absence. But given that he would ONLY appear in seasons 1 to 3, based on the books...they should have recast him by Season 5.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:09, October 10, 2014 (UTC)

Factors affecting Season 5: Fear of flashbacks/exposition, and uncertainty about 7 or 8 seasons

I'm trying to keep this organized in my mind.

My overall analysis is that Benioff and Weiss have a lot of fears stemming from the failed pilot episode. It had a ton of heavy exposition which didn't work, deluging the audience with information which went over their heads. Yet at other times, they didn't have enough -- infamously, that they had to ham-fistedly dub in new dialogue in the later version pointing out "Jaime is Cersei's brother", "Tyrion is also Cersei's brother" etc. Because the test audiences they showed the pilot to genuinely walked away not realizing how everyone was related. They were left with a very low impression of how much info a general audience can retain...which has unfortunately, too often proved true: how many people still call Daenerys "Khaleesi", not even realizing that her name is "Daenerys"? People who didn't even know who Roose Bolton was during the Red Wedding, despite being on the show for two seasons by that point. The balance of exposition to give is not an easy choice in TV adaptation, and I sympathize with them in principle -- I just feel there were times they took it a little too far.

Frankly I don't even mind the "Sexposition" if it's how they dupe the casual viewers into sitting still while they give a long speech of background exposition - at least the exposition gets in somehow.

...the pilot also left them with an extreme distaste for flashbacks: they tried flashbacks to the Mad King killing Brandon and Rickard Stark and it just didn't work out for them. Fine, we haven't seen them, but okay it messes with the pacing. The books don't even have flashbacks (they have characters recall certain events, but they're not objective flashbacks).

Omitting Tysha

At any rate this combined into the disaster of not mentioning Tysha as the reason that Tyrion killed Tywin - the shocking revelation that she *wasn't* a whore, she really was just a commoner who fell in love with him, that Tywin destroyed the one good thing in Tyrion's life and made him think it was never real in the first place, and indeed, basically had his guards gang-rape Tyrion's first wife, for no greater crime than loving him.

Oddly, they DID mention Tysha at least once a season before that. But I think this was their overall panic that "the audience won't remember that".

Well, 1 - It's your job to make sure they keep informed about it, i.e. by writing a long scene in which Tyrion recalls (to Jaime?) "oh crud, another whore got me in trouble, remember the last time when I married that one?" (and then have Jaime look really uncomfortable).

2 - ...It's the audience's fault if they can't remember who Roose Bolton was, if you actually gave him a decent amount of setup. This is what HBO's The Wire openly did: expected the audience to be able to keep up with the numerous character subplots. If you mention Tysha at least once a season, yes you can use it. "Well it just doesn't have as much dramatic impact if they don't remember"...compared to what, Tyrion randomly killing Tywin? Events just falling into place?

What few comments they made about this at SDCC 2014 were that "we just couldn't fit it in in adaptation"....by which, if they were being honest, it wasn't just "in that episode" but "because we have a no-flashbacks rule, and a TV camera can't be in Tyrion's head all the time when he frequently thinks of Tysha, we couldn't think of how to build up Tysha as important enough to kill someone over." Well that's only hurting themselves.

"on the fence" about 7 or 8 seasons

Many news outlets have blindly quoted Benioff and Weiss's statements about "7 seasons, we always said that" made at the start of Season 4...when even in the same magazine, GRRM was pushing for 8 if not 9.....and realistically, we know that Benioff and Weiss were saying "8 seasons" ever since they split season 3 into two halves.

What's really happening, as Elio on Westeros.org pointed out, is that they can't confirm if they're going to have eight seasons....so they hedged their bets by leaving several subplots in a "limbo state" -- only after Season 5 airs will they really definitively know if they'll have 8 seasons.

Again, same thing happened with Shireen Baratheon in Season 2: they thought they might have to cut the character, but truly wanted to use her later (in a never say never way)...so rather than definitively say "we cut Shireen" they left it deliberately vague, hoping that the confirmation that book 3 would be split across two seasons would give them more room to include her.

This is why they're not being clear about whether Arianne Martell exists in the TV show or not. Frankly, we'd be upset if they said "no", but it would sound more professional. Why make no confirmation one way or the other?

Well, because they're holding out hope that after Season 5 airs, they'll get another pickup through season 8, at which point they'll cast Arianne because they have enough time for her now. They might even cast Willas Tyrell.

I also now seriously fear that the entire Siege of Riverrun subplot with Edmure and Brynden Tully is in "limbo state", replaced by Jaime and Broon in Dorne. In which case, it MIGHT re-appear in Season 6, if after Season 5 ends, they get officially renewed through Season 8.

......the problem of course is that this "on the fence" situation directly conflicts with the other problem: out pacing the books.

They're functioning under "worst case scenario" in Season 5: not including the ironborn (at least not the main subplot), possibly even leaving out Arianne, and possibly Riverrun. The nightmare scenario in which they don't get renewed.

So they're *burning off* storyline, rapidly adapting stuff...we've already confirmed that at least Cersei's storyline will continue *through the end of her published material* from books 4 and 5, when it should really have spanned 2 seasons (though depending on the way they spaced it out, if this is the primary focused-on storyline of Season 5, they MIGHT be able to adapt most of it without losing much).

....but this is madness. They were always worried about outpacing the books...so why start assuming "the show is ending early, we need to start wrapping things up and rapidly condensing things"?

....well, what Elio of Westeros.org said is that it has to do with actor contracts. Actors only sign contracts for 5-6 years, not 8. Some of the major recurring actors like Kit Harington, Emilia Clarke, Lena Headey....they're now negotiating with them for expensive, expensive contract extensions. They can pull down millions now at this point because the show hinges on them and they're too important to recast this late in the game. I say, just pay them.

Game of Thrones is the highest rated show in HBO history. Yes, it's also the most expensive. Yes, they make the impossible seem easy and we aren't in a good position to judge.

But the key here is "wait for the end of Season 5"...that's when they REALLY have to decide "is Season 7 the last season or is Season 8?".....we'll only find out then if they're renewed through Season 8.

Until then, it's Arya at Harrenhal in Season 2 all over again. Subplots stuck in "standby mode" because they don't want to advance them too far and run out of material....OR, as with Bran's subplots, burning through all of the book material they have rather than make filler....then just plain run out of future material.

I think the practical result, if we do get a Season 8 extension....is that at least the stuff from the later books won't be as badly truncated. I mean seriously, it's a three act structure, and they haven't even started fighting the White Walkers in earnest, nor has Daenerys returned to Westeros just yet....most of the next 2 books probably deal with that. So FUTURE material not yet published won't end up being truncated, but meanwhile, they're just burning through everything else.

And there's a lot that could be cut fairly easily from Feast. The only things I particularly mourn are: 1 - you can't backburner the ironborn for this long, 2 - removing Arianne is madness, 3 - they need to get back to Riverrun EVENTUALLY.

But they just don't synch up; if Cersei gets tot he end of her book 4/5 material by the end of Season 5...they can't easily then do the ironborn or Arianne stuff. UNLESS they put King's Landing, I mean the entire storyarc "on pause" for Season 6, while the rest of the show catches up.

(sigh)....that's at least "do-able" in theory. King's Landing gets back-burnered for once and focus on the subplots that got squeezed out in Season 5, because Season 5 focused on King's Landing.

....anyone think that, if they do get renewed into Season 8, they might just give some actors a season off to work on other projects? Like, Emilia Clarke in particular, or Lena Headey...

This is quickly spiraling out of control.

I wish we had some more news commentary from Westeros.org trying to dissect all of this, but Elio and Linda have been very busy promoting their new book (which launches at the end of the month). Hopefully once they return they can offer more insight into this mess.

If you're still reading this long rambling diatribe, thank you. But in closing, my main point is this:

As we saw in Season 2, when they weren't sure if they'd get to split book 3 across Season 3 and Season 4 or if they'd have to horrifically condense it, they left themselves "opt-outs" - not clearly confirming if Shireen existed or not, in the hope that they'd later get time for that. So I hope, hope and fear, that they got worried that they might not get a Season 8 due to internal negotiations, so they started saying "always 7 seasons" purely as a face-saving gesture if they lose....IF they lose, it's still in flux....so they sidelined the ironborn, Arianne, and Riverrun, but hoping to later make it up to those storylines in Season 6, if they ever manage to get Season 8. This, ultimately, is why they're not simply making drastic condensations and then being open about it - they hold out hope that they can fix them.

(sigh)

These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, the winter soldier, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman.

--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:40, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

Breaking news: Cast signs through Season 7

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-cast-signs-season-744314

While Season 7 has not yet officially been greenlit, the cast is in successful steps to renegotiate contract extensions through Season 7.

As Westeros.org pointed out, one of the primary reasons that Benioff & Weiss are suddenly playing coy about if there will be seven or eight seasons in all is because of cast contract negotiations. Most actors don't sign exclusive contracts longer than five or six years - most shows don't last that long. Now, to keep Kit Harington or Emilia Clarke, the starring cast members the show can't go on without, they have to negotiate pay raises in the *millions* of dollars. Think about it, Clarke can go off and do Terminator films if she wants and make millions - HBO has to give her reason to stay (you'd think "potential Emmy nominations for added prestige" would do it...).

Because of these expensive cast contract negotiations, the executive producers have been playing coy about whether there will be eight seasons (as ORIGINALLY planned). In turn...this is specifically why they're considering cutting out Arianne Martell and the Greyjoy/Iron Islands subplots. They didn't think they'd have enough screentime for that with only seven seasons, not eight.

Even the simultaneous renewal for both Season 5 AND Season 6 was unprecedented (most shows only get renewed one season at a time). So they're not even sure if there would be a Season 7, much less a Season 8 (though a simultaneous renewal does lean in that direction).

...so what we see today is "progress" on those frightening cast contracts which have been holding the future seasons up.

One of their solutions was to implement a "Tier" system, dividing the returning cast into Groups A, B, and C, with group A receiving higher pay raises. A few examples given from each group include:

• Tier A: Kit Harington (Jon Snow), Peter Dinklage (Tyrion Lannister), Lena Headey (Cersei Lannister), Emilia Clarke (Daenerys Targaryen) and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau (Jaime Lannister)
• Tier B: Natalie Dormer (Margaery Tyrell), Sophie Turner (Sansa Stark), Maisie Williams (Arya Stark)
• Tier C: Many others

This seems fairly logical: Jon, Daenerys, and the three Lannister children are as close to being the "stars" of the show as any. While Margaery Tyrell is important, she's not quite on that level (though given that she's Tommen's queen, that's arguably at this point).

I mean the main characters are loosely "Team Stark", "Team Lannister", and Daenerys. The only other core "Lannisters" - by in-universe terms - are Tommen and Myrcella, but they can and have been recast, and haven't been *that* prominent (yet).

As for the surviving main Starks...Sansa, Arya, Bran....while we think of Arya as very popular and one of the core cast members (GRRM himself has said that after Tyrion, Arya are his favorite chapters to write)....they're still child actors. I think HBO could *plausibly* recast them and say they just went through a growth spurt...or at least, that's a threat they're using as a negotiation strategy for contracts.

Anyway, fundamentally, straightening out the cast contract renewals beyond Season 6 has been one of the major stumbling blocks to getting a Season 8...which in turn led to cutting a few subplots such as the ironborn.

I think that the reason the TV producers have been so vague and coy is much the same reason Shireen's existence was ambiguous in Season 2 - when they got permission to adapt the large Book 3 across not one but two seasons, they had enough time to include her in Season 3.

So a Season 8 renewal...dependent on these cast contract negotiations...will mean them including those subplots. LATE of course, as they were supposed to happen NOW...and what, Arianne was just "off-screen"? But better late and retconned in than never.

As Westeros.org said, they haven't made an *ironclad* decision to have only 7 seasons. Ultimately, they said, they have to choose that by the end of Season 5 - planning out what subplots will be fit within only two more seasons, or only three more.

And frankly, I'd settle for what a lot of TV shows do these days: have a double-sized 16 episode "Season 7" aired in two blocks, FUNCTIONALLY making up eight seasons. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:48, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

Bran Stark not appearing in Season 5

Well, we knew Hodor wasn't, but they've now confirmed that Bran Stark won't appear either, the entire storyline is on-hold because it got too far ahead, and, because they feel this is a good stopping point (which is is, really).

I actually think this was a smart choice. Moreso than say, Sansa....Bran is indeed in a "training period" which can safely take place "off screen" as it isn't very cinematic. I'd hoped they'd use it as an excuse for greensight flashbacks but....we've also got to deal with the already very bad time constraints of the other subplots. And as they said, they went FURTHER AHEAD with Bran, and they want everyone to keep pace.

What I wonder about is what this bodes about the ironborn subplots and Arianne Martell: we know that the King's Landing subplots will go all the way up to catching up to the books by the end of Season 5 (well, the end of book 4, concurrent for the most part with book 5 save for the last chapter...)

So...will they "pause" most of the King's Landing subplots for the other stuff to catch up? Don't know. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:25, November 5, 2014 (UTC)

Plot Summary - Spoilers & Book-only canon

The current "Plot" text seems to have quite a lot of information that seems to correspond much better to the book canon than to what has been established in the show and what will apparently happen next season, based on filming reports, casting information, etcetera. It also gets ahead of itself, with quite a bit of spoilers. Here are the lines I find unfit, and why:

"The Riverlands, where most of the war was fought, have been reduced to a burned out husk. Nominally the Lannisters and their House Frey allies control the Riverlands, but it has been reduced to a lawless and corpse-filled devastation, hardly controlled by anyone."

Now, the rest of the paragraph concerning the coming of Winter, the destruction of the land and the resulting rise of the smallfolk through religious fanaticism seems appropriate —we do know they are including the Sparrows, and you don't cast Jonathan Pryce if you aren't going to make good use of him. However, that first part on the Riverlands seems kind of out of place in the show. Walder Frey is not returning this season; Brienne is not even currently in the Riverlands, but in the Vale (and going by filming reports, she will be there for a while); and crucially, Jaime won't go to the Riverlands but to Dorne instead (early hopes that his trip could be a quick affair were crushed by the revelation that he would still be in Dorne by episode 9.)

"Distrusting the Tyrells, Cersei "rebuilds" the Small Council with incompetent loyalists and sycophants, who are not capable of dealing with the major crises the crown faces."

Now, here's one that is most definitely based more on A Feast for Crows than on anything the show indicated so far or on what we know of Season 5. As far as we know —and we probably would have heard about this by now, so we do know much—, there is no Harys Swyft. His only notable role in the books so far was going to Braavos to treat with the Iron Bank (and inadvertently delivering Raff the Sweetling to Arya on a silver plater), a role which in the show we know (thanks to very public filming pictures) is being handled by Mace Tyrell (accompanied by Meryn Trant instead of Raff.) There is no trace of all the other people, who are even less active than him. No Orton Merryweather, Gyles Rosby, or Aurane Waters. As far as we know, her Small Council will consist of Pycelle, Qyburn and maybe Littlefinger (who we know will return to the capital, although we don't know for how long.) Now, we may be lacking some information and other people may be involved, but even then, the claim that Cersei rebuilds the council with "incompetent loyalists and sychophants" is incredibly specific —too specific, considering nothing show-related points to it being true.

"Stannis now hopes to win the allegiance of Robb Stark's defeated bannermen, to rally the North again as a springboard against Lannister rule."

We simply don't know if this is true. It likely is in the long run, but there have also been casting calls for wildling leaders who will be involved in a number of strategy war meetings, so maybe in the show Stannis will march to Winterfell aided by wildlings, not Northern mountain clans. That's only speculation, of course, but my point is... that's another very specific claim, so much so that even if true it may be a spoiler, since if it happens, the show will probably introduce the idea on its own somehow.

"Meanwhile, Roose's psychotic bastard son Ramsay Snow - now legitimized as Ramsay Bolton - has established himself as the new Lord of Winterfell,"

Both in ADWD and S4, Ramsay went to Winterfell with his father, who very much leads there. How does Ramsay "establish himself as the new Lord of Winterfell"?

"Further north, meanwhile, representatives from the Iron Throne travel to the Free City of Braavos to assauge the Iron Bank's frustrations about all of the money the Lannisters owe."

Considering we know Mace Tyrell's scenes with Tycho Nestoris were from episode 9, isn't it getting too ahead of ourselves to just outright say it in the summary? It's very much the same way in the books; it doesn't happen until the end of ADWD and the beginning of TWOW. The Crown's troubles with the Iron Bank have already been established earlier in this summary, so there really is no need to be this specific.

And maybe the one that is most appropriate for the books only and not the show:

"Envoys are beginning to head east to court Daenerys's allegiance: but those who try to dance with dragons run the risk of being burned."

Now, that phrasing is very nice. We start with "feast for crows" and end with "dance with dragons." Nice. But... is is true? Yes, we know Tyrion is headed there, eventually. Maybe so is Varys, after they get separated. Who knows. But Young Griff and company are patently cut, as is Quentyn, both of whom fit the "courting Daenerys's allegiance" line the most. So who are these envoys being sent to court Daenerys, in the show, apart from, in a way, Tyrion?

That aside, the summary is really well written. Did a hell of a job, The Dragon Demands. But still, those spoiler/book-only details are a bit out of place, I think.—ArticXiongmao (talk) 01:09, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

The Riverlands information I felt was a reasonable extrapolation of what we've already seen in Arya's subplot, episodes 4.1 and 4.3 in particular. Plus with the Sparrows subplot and the Iron Bank I felt it wasn't a spoiler.

As for the Small Council, I considered that a logical extension of the point already seen that "Littlefinger, Varys, Tywin, and Tyrion are gone, the Small Council has been gutted."

Stannis rallying the North...I considered that a "logical extension" and seemingly obvious, while still being as vague as possible. What are we going to say, "Stannis has abandoned the fight for the Iron Throne entirely to fight the White Walkers?"

...I don't remember writing "established himself", I'll reword that. They were last seen heading to Winterfell so I thought it obvious extrapolation.

Mace and the Iron Bank - I left it vague enough.

So let's see...the Small Council and the Ramsay wording....I'll tweak that a bit...--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:15, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough ;) What about the envoys to court Daenerys? Isn't it just not true, in the show, with all the cuts? —ArticXiongmao (talk) 01:22, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

Well, you know, Tyrion.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:45, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

Official Season 5 teasers

The first official teaser for Season 5 has come out: http://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-season-5-teaser-sight/

When I say "teaser", it's not a "teaser trailer" but an actual "teaser" -- just clips of Season 4 and it says "Season 5 coming soon" at the end. All of 30 seconds long.

The one new image at the end is a closeup shot of the black and white doors of the House of Black and White in Braavos (but not really worth screencapping, they're not a good angle).

What's more important is that it revealed the entire system they're going to have for revealing teasers in coming weeks: they are going to incrementally keep releasing new little teasers, through a custom-made website called www.ThreeEyedRaven.com.

So we should be on the lookout for that.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:01, November 25, 2014 (UTC)

Season 5 red carpet premiere

Hey can someone help by loading up these photos from the Season 5 red carpet premiere to each actor's wiki article? http://watchersonthewall.com/game-of-thrones-season-5-world-premiere-red-carpet-interviews-and-photos/

--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:26, March 18, 2015 (UTC)

Jokes about "haha now even book fans will be surprised"

I'm already tired of the bland joke circulating around the internet that "haha, if Season 5 outpaces the books in some subplots, now even book readers will be surprised along with us TV-first fans"....demonstrating once again that they know nothing.

Book fans don't sit around worried about watching storylines in TV form before book form...provided that they're basically what Martin intended.

They know nothing about what this experience has been like for book readers: we weren't sitting around for four years confidently watching a storyline we already knew 100%, but angrily comparing even minute and trivial plot points to how the books did it. And, at times, this made our experience worse than TV-first viewers, i.e. gutting the impact of Tywin's death by removing Tysha: we knew it could be better.

So if anything, no, seeing material ahead of the books is a welcome relief, because we don't have to spend the mental load constantly comparing it to how "this was slightly better when I pictured this scene in my head."

Seriously: the predominant emotion here is relief, not "frustration and fear".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:30, March 22, 2015 (UTC)

Sansa's storyline adaptation (SPOILERS)

Reddit is not considered a reliable source. Await confirmation from WOTW.com or other sources.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 13:30, April 6, 2015 (UTC)

Many different people who saw the screeners confirmed it. WOTW itself did too, by removing people who commented these spoilers. —ArticXiongmao (talk) 13:46, April 6, 2015 (UTC)

The only info in those spoiler reports which was particularly notable was the Sansa stuff. WOTW also removes false rumors as well. That being said it does seem probable that this is what is going to happen, but we can't treat it as confirmation. I don't trust these reddit posts.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:09, April 6, 2015 (UTC)

Okay new post by Sue the Fury of WOTW.com (who has seen screeners of the first four episodes). While spoiler free, her comments section stuff generally indicates this is happening.

None of the other changes I particularly mind (so long as Jaime and Bronn RETURN from Dorne, alive, might be a fun diversion to highlight some "off screen" stuff).

But the Sansa stuff...what the heck? How is this even "a plan"? Yes in the books what Littlefinger is trying to do makes sense, but it's a marriage-alliance against the Boltons.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:26, April 6, 2015 (UTC)

It's against the Boltons in the show too. Remember the trailer? "Avenge them", and all that. Some people are having big issues with Littlefinger leaving Robin and the Vale behind, and leaving Sansa in Winterfell, but I think they're seeing it from the perspective of the end of AFFC, not the end of season four. These people seem to forget that Littlefinger ended season four with a much better hold of the Vale than he did in A Feast for Crows. There are no Lord Declarants in the show —in fact, Yohn Royce and Anya Waynwood seem to support Littlefinger 100% now. Last we saw them, Petyr was convincing them to side against the Lannisters eventually, no less:

Littlefinger: You want justice, Lord Royce. I can hardly complain about that. I want the same.

Anya Waynwood: Not much justice to be meted out in suicide, is there?

Littlefinger: For Lysa, no. But for her son? Only 20 years ago, the knights of the Vale rode behind Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon. They fought together to overcome the Mad King. And since then, Arryn and Royce, Corbray, Waynwood, all the great houses of the Vale watched from the corner. A timid boy at a tavern brawl.

Yohn Royce: Are you questioning our courage?

Littlefinger: I want to know which side you’re on. Do you support the Lannisters, the house that executed your friend Ned Stark?

Yohn Royce: Of course we don’t support the damn Lannisters!

Littlefinger: No? Catelyn Stark begged her sister for support and Lysa refused. By staying out of the fray, you’ve allowed Tywin Lannister to destroy his rivals on every compass point. Who stands against him now?

Anya Waynwood: Who would you have us back, Lord Baelish? Robb Stark is dead.

Littlefinger: I’d have you back Robin Arryn, Lord of the Vale.

Anya Waynwood: Robin Arryn is a sickly little boy.

Littlefinger: And sickly little boys sometimes become powerful men.

Book readers really seem to forget that crucial scene and assume Littlefinger’s situation is just as it was left off the the fourth book. However, that’s not the case at all: in the show Littlefinger has the Vale in his firm grasp —the Lords that are against him in the books support him in the show (and seem to be antagonistic towards the Lannisters, and may even be willing to rebel! But that's not even necessary), and Robin himself seems to love and respect Petyr much more as well. That matters. Next week, when we see Littlefinger leave Robin Arryn with Yohn Royce, that will be the Bronze Yohn of Game of Thrones, who by the end of season four had a newfound respect for Littlefinger. When Littlefinger leaves the Vale, he will leave the Vale of the show, which already is his with no opposition, not the Vale of the books.

As for Littlefinger’s plan for Sansa in Winterfell, I can’t make sense of it all, as of yet. But… we don’t know his plan, not truly, not yet! Marrying Sansa to Ramsay would make sense if he predicts they will win against Stannis —but it's been reported that he predicts just the opposite, that Sansa should wait for Stannis to win. So why not go directly to Stannis then? Why marry her off to Ramsay at all? There has to be more to this. Remember: "Avenge them." It's not a true marriage alliance. Of course it isn't. An alliance is simply the best way to infiltrate Winterfell, nor unlike Manderly did in ADWD, except in this case the alliance is forged with a marriage.

From screener reports, we know he wants Sansa to wait for Stannis to win. But why doesn't Sansa go beg Stannis for her rightful place as Lady of Winterfell? My bet is that Littlefinger intends to bargain with Stannis from a position of strength, by somehow forcing the Boltons to leave the castle and fight Stannis outside (just as a Northern lord does in the books, though it’s Freys and Manderlys who go out, not the Boltons themselves), so that when Stannis arrives to the castle, it will be in the hands of Sansa, the Knights of the Vale and some Stark Loyalist Northern Lords (a Northern Lady whispers “the North remembers” to Sansa in an early episode, apparently.) Stannis will have to either accept Sansa as the Lady of Winterfell (which he would probably do anyway, though from a position of authority) or confront a protracted siege after the battles and storms he has faced to reach Winterfell.

That makes sense to me. At least, that’s that I think will happen, even if Littlefinger didn’t plan it all. Also, it more or less lines up with the end of ADWD and what we know of TWOW. —ArticXiongmao (talk) 22:34, April 7, 2015 (UTC)

Editing question:

Tried to edit this page & I got a message saying only "established registered users" can edit it. I'm signed in, pretty sure I'm an established registered user & I can't make any changes. Is there another level of registered user that I haven't attained yet? Quiscustodiet (talk) 20:30, June 24, 2015 (UTC)

Oh Crud. Wiki pages have three lock settings: Admin-only, no lock, and "anonymous editors and new users". In theory, the idea is that anonymous IP addresses tend to be vandals more than names, but a vandal might register a name purely to make a bad edit -- people did that to try to spoil the Red Wedding -- so the idea is to lock out "anonymous and new editors" as one category. This can get annoying because as you've said, I consider you a frequent enough and longstanding enough editor to work on such pages.

It is physically impossible for me to change the lock settings to me more precise, and I really don't want anonymous editors vandalizing such a page...though now that the season has ended, perhaps.

I don't know what the threshold is between "new" and "not new" users.

What did you want to change?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:31, June 24, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Think there was an editing war going on & the admins locked it or would there have been a msg explaining that? Anyway, I just wanted to clean up some of the grammar & spelling errors & (seriously hope you didn't write it yourself!) that awful overdramatic line at the beginning of the plot section about the corpse being a feast for crows. Doesn't contribute anything to the plot summary. Quiscustodiet (talk) 19:21, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Still can't edit anything... Quiscustodiet (talk) 19:56, June 29, 2015 (UTC)

That makes no sense, I totally unlocked it for full access.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:35, June 29, 2015 (UTC)

Tried it on both my PC & my iPad. When I click on the text, it's seems locked in a blue box. No big hurry or anything but just keep me posted. Thanks much! Quiscustodiet (talk) 16:38, June 30, 2015 (UTC)

I also cannot edit - wanted to correct the psychotic/psychopathic error discussed elsewhere (sorry, it's a bugbear of mine!) It's under the photo of Ramsay. -Ruby Doomsday (talk) 11:04, July 24, 2015 (UTC)

Any other news on getting this page unlocked so I & Ruby Doomsday can edit? Been a while since I asked, I know! Quiscustodiet (talk) 02:47, September 30, 2015 (UTC)

Oh I unlocked it a while ago because you asked; have you tried editing?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:03, September 30, 2015 (UTC)

Ramsay's titles

Ramsay is not the Lord of Winterfell under his father that only happened in the novels. As of season 5 Roose holds the titles Lord of the Dreadfort, Lord of Winterfell, Lord Paramount of the North, and Warden of the North jointly. Ramsay doesn't get any of those titles until Season 6 episode 2 Home after he murders his father. (Jman321 (talk) 19:33, January 7, 2018 (UTC))