Major Issue 1 - Current Calendar year?Edit
The first novel begins in the year 298 AL. Due to moving around the date of Robert's Rebellion the TV series has avoided stating specific dates.
This became cumbersome when we couldn't assign dates to events in the TV series itself, etc.
Eventually, for lack of anything better, we settled on the principle that Season 1 also began in 298 AL. This is based on the fact that props which appear in Season 1 such as Jorah's pardon letter list the date "298 AL" -- even though, in all probability, the TV scriptwriters didn't coordinate with the props masters at all, who were merely copying what the year was in the first novel.
Whatever the case, we were faced with a choice between "use 298 AL as a placeholder" OR "screw it, abandon any attempt to list what the current year is"....leading to a cumbersome "two years after the beginning of the series" set of descriptions. Having to choose SOMETHING, we're sticking with 298 AL.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:06, April 4, 2016 (UTC)
On the use of AL and BAL, contrasting with George RR Martin's own system. Edit
Based on the sample from The World of Ice and Fire George R. R. Martin has released on his site here , It appears he uses the terminology AC (After the Conquest) or BC (Before the Conquest). This being dates counted from his crowning as king in Oldtown, 1-2 years after his landing in Blackwater Bay. Should this timeline potentially be updated to account for this? -- IronSean (talk) 12:43, May 6, 2014 (UTC)
While the "AC" notation is superior, props within the TV show still use "AL" - so we will use "AL" until the TV continuity introduces props that say "AC" on them...at which point we will drop "AL" like a dead weight.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:18, August 27, 2014 (UTC)
Major Issue 2 - changing Robert's Rebellion from 15 to 17 years ago, aging up the castEdit
Robert's Rebellion occurred "17 years ago" in the TV series instead of "15 years ago" as in the books; having established that Season 1 is 298 AL (just as in book 1) this means that Robert's Rebellion occurred "two years earlier" in the TV continuity. So while Robert's Rebellion occurred from 282 AL to 283 AL in the books (it lasted about one year, stretched across two calendar years), in the TV series continuity Robert's Rebellion was from 280 AL to 281 AL.
As explained in the article, the writers directly stated that the main reason the change was made was because Daenerys has a sex scene in Season 1 episode 1 when in the novels she's only 13 (they dismissed concerns that Robb Stark also has sex at a young age in a subsequent novel - that was distant and potential, what the censors had a problem with was specifically Daenerys). Daenerys's birth is tied to the end of the war because her father died at the end of it, so this pushed back the time since the war ended, and affected the age of other characters like Robb and Jon (technically it didn't need to affect Sansa and Arya, but they were consistent)...
Not every character, as a rule, was aged up by exactly two years. Sansa is 13 instead of 11, and Arya is 11 instead of 9, but Bran is 10 instead of 7 (all of this stated in on-screen dialogue). So we shouldn't just assume it was exactly "two years" unless otherwise stated (once and a while we might fudge it slightly i.e. Shireen was the same age as Arya in the novels so we'll leave a footnote saying "Shireen was stated to be the same age as Arya in the book version, we have no guarantee this is exactly the same in the TV continuity, but we tentatively assume it until we get any evidence to the contrary".
This being established, we've had some problems with new editors coming on and putting approximate ages in for characters like Eddard Stark. This is absurd. You only put in character ages in their infobox if we have an exact number to work with. We shouldn't assume "adult" characters are the same age in the TV continuity (indeed, the TV continuity actually changed Tywin's official age considerably).
So for the most part, character age calculations are for younger character for whom age is an issue - difference between nine and ten is big, difference between 39 and 40 is not nearly as significant.
So we're only working with characters for whom actual numbers have been given (and with one or two child characters such as Sweetrobin Arryn or Shireen, we're fudging it a bit by half-guessing their relative age to the Stark children in the books, but also noting that we're not sure if the age relationships are necessarily the same in the TV series). --The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:08, April 4, 2016 (UTC)
Evidence for character agesEdit
The following is a list of points when character ages were directly stated, and when these statements were made. It makes no attempt to calculate how old they are in subsequent seasons, only when their age was directly stated (often in Season 1, so the progression of time won't be discussed here):
- Robb Stark - similar to the novels, they've explained that Eddard impregnated Catelyn on their wedding night (or at least) before he left south for war, and Robb was born while he was away on campaign. His birth is tied to the date of the war. Because the war was pushed back two years, Robb's age is simply increased by two years, from 14 in the books to 16 in Season 1 of the TV series. This wasn't directly stated, but it was heavily implied if not assumed, due to Daenerys, his age being tied to the date of the war, etc.
- Jon Snow - similarly, in the novels no one knows exactly how old Jon is (I'm not sure if Eddard ever told him his actual nameday, even)...but he was born during the war. Or at least, even if Eddard isn't his actual father, people think it plausible that Eddard impregnated a woman early in the war, then nine months later Jon was born, and he arrived at Winterfell as a baby. Either way, most think that Jon is a few months younger than Robb, but the same numerical age - both are listed as 14 in the novels. Again like Robb in the TV series, we simply increase this by two to get 16 in Season 1.
- Sansa Stark - directly states that she is "13" to Cersei in Season 1 episode 1.
- Arya Stark - Directly states to Syrio in Season 1 that she is 11 years old (not sure which episode). Arya was two years younger than Sansa in the books, it would be logical that she is two years younger in the TV series.
- Bran Stark - directly states he is "10" to Jaime in Season 1 episode 1, instead of 7 as in the novels (or the anticipated 8 years old).
- Rickon Stark - Robb directly states that he is "6" in Season 1 episode 2, instead of 3 years old as in the novels (or the anticipated 5 years old).
- Daenerys Targaryen - born towards the end of the war, after her father died in the books (think late 283 AL). Because her birth is tied so heavily to the date of the war, like Robb Stark, we simply add two years to the TV date: Daenerys is stated to be 13 years old at the very beginning of the novel -- though she apparently turned 14 relatively early in the first book -- it's directly stated when she learned she was pregnant with Drogo's child on her 14th nameday - corresponding to early Season 1's "Lord Snow" (Season 1, episode 3). Thus Daenerys was "15 going on 16" in Season 1, turning 16 by episode 3 or so - due to the UK's rules about sex scenes, when the age of the character portrayed matters, not the actor's age. But the reasoning on this seems clear given the writers' statements: her birth is tied to the date of the war, they increase the time since the war by two years, so we increase her age by two years.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:22, April 4, 2016 (UTC)
- We could choose to avoid confusion and just list her as "16" in Season 1, given that I think people reading the first novel might list her as "14" given that she turns 14 VERY early in the long novel. The difference of a matter of months gets confusing. It took a few months while queen Rhaella was waiting on Dragonstone for her to be born, but the war was held to have already "ended" when the Mad King died, explaining the discrepancy. So given that casual readers would see "hey, war ended 17 years ago with her father's death, wouldn't that make her 16 due to 9 month pregnancy?"....yeah, I'm open to fudging it and saying she was "16" in Season 1, rounding, due to spending most of Season 1 at 16 years old. But this is arguing semantics.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:22, April 4, 2016 (UTC)
- Tywin Lannister - Tywin was 58 years old when he died in the books (AWOIAF did the math and figured out he was born in 242 AL, and he died in 300 AL; he was stated to be in his "mid-fifties" when introduced in 298 AL - keeping in mind that medieval people didn't tend to live as long and aged more quickly, TV-Tywin is still slightly older than him in appearance) ----The TV series, however, directly stated that in Season 4 Tywin was 67 years old - making him nine years older than his book counterpart.
- This gets complicated due to his age being stated in a later season, raising the issues about the progression of time.
- Cersei and Jaime Lannister - twins, in the books both were around 33 years old when Tywin died in 300 AL. AWOIAF did the math and they were born in 266 AL. The books give no specific statements about Cersei's age, but she is Jaime's twin, so we have to base her age on his age because they match. Jaime is stated in the White Book to be 15 when he was raised to the Kingsguard, not 17 as in the TV series. Jaime was formally inducted into the Kingsguard during the Tourney at Harrenhal - the same Tourney at which Lyanna Stark caught the eye of Rhaegar Targaryen; Robert's Rebellion began one year later, and lasted one year, thus Jaime was 17 when he killed Aerys II at the end of the war, "15 years ago". During the Battle of the Blackwater (about a year later, 299 AL) Tyrion recalls that Jaime was named to the Kingsguard "18 years ago" - 15 + 1 (events of books 1 and 2) + another 2 (the time between the Tourney at Harrenhal and when Jaime killed the Mad King) gives us 18.
- The TV series has changed their ages: it is stated that Jaime was named to the Kingsguard at 17, and that Cersei became queen at 19 (right after the war ended)...the White Book's entry on Jaime mistakenly lists him as 16 at the time, but on-screen dialogue supersedes this. These numbers entirely fit - about a year passed between when Jaime was named to the Kingsguard and when the war began, and the war lasted about another year, so Jaime and Cersei were 19 when the war ended. If Jaime and Cersei were both 19 when Robert's Rebellion ended "17 years ago", that makes them 19+17= 36 years old in Season 1. This makes them about four years older than their book counterparts; 19 instead of 17 when the war ended, and then an extra two years added so it's been 17 not 15 years since Robert's Rebellion ended.
- Tyrion Lannister - Cersei states in "Blackwater" that she was only four years old when her mother died - giving birth to Tyrion. In the novels, they were both actually 8 years old. So TV-Tyrion is four years younger that Jaime and Cersei, thus making him about 32 years old in Season 1. I think they changed this to acknowledge that Dinklage is in fact older than the actors playing Jaime and Cersei, they can only say he's so much younger than them (I wave it away as due to his infamous ugliness as a dwarf). But this seems straightforward.
- Joffrey Baratheon - stated to be 17 years old in Season 2; reasonably sure they meant him to therefore be 16 in Season 1 (based on Renly's line that indicates one year has passed between Seasons 1 and 2). Of course they probably didn't juggle in that invented character of Cersei's black-haired son, but okay, let's say she marries Robert 17 years ago, immediately gets pregnant, baby dies, then gets pregnant with Joffrey, making him born 18 months after Robert's Rebellion ended - one "calendar year" after it. Fudging the numbers but we can make that work.
- Tommen Baratheon - stated to be 10 years old in Season 1, up from 7 in the novels - however, when they recast the character in Season 4 they apparently retconned how old he actually is. He is stated not to have a regent anymore (plus consummates his marriage), which would mean he's at the age of adulthood - 16 in the novels, possibly increased to 18 in the TV series? (as per Samwell's comments). This is a separate issue, but hey, recastings come with age retcons, I understand that.
- Myrcella Baratheon - not directly stated. IF one year passes each season, Joffrey would have been 20 years old in Season 5...matching that youngest child Tommen seems around 18...and thus middle child Myrcella would be around 19. That fits, it's not implausible. But not direct evidence....
- "Sweetrobin" Arryn - stated on-screen in the Season 5 premiere that he's 13 years old. IF the principle is that one TV season equals one year, that puts him around 9 years old in Season 1. In the novels he was 6 years old in book one (age-up puts him around 8-9 in Season 1 too?) This seems to fit the idea that one TV season equals one year, but that's a separate issue.
- Theon Greyjoy - In the books, Theon was taken from Pyke nine years before at the end of the Greyjoy Rebellion, when he was 10 years old, making him 19 in book 1. He's actually about five years older than Robb Stark in the books. Now the TV version did state that the Greyjoy Rebellion also happened "nine years ago" at the beginning of the narrative -- thus if we say that Robert's Rebellion occurred two years earlier than in the book continuity, Balon Greyjoy just waited two more years to start his rebellion. Otherwise we haven't really been given a firm number for Theon's age.
- Samwell Tarly - in the books, Sam's father Randyll threatened to kill him if he didn't join the Night's Watch on the morning of his 15th nameday...inexplicably changed to his "18th" nameday in the TV version...which makes no sense. Did they want to change the age of majority from 16 in the books to 18 in the TV series? Well and good. But why have Randyll say "You're almost a man now"...on the ACTUAL DAY that Samwell legally became a man? Why not his 17th nameday? In which case, should this have been his 17th nameday, and it's just a dialogue error? (most other characters got aged-up by exactly two years...). Ack. Well, those are the numbers given for Samwell in the TV series. Samwell is 18 years old in Season 1.
- Walder Frey - just as in the books, it is said that Walder will be taking a new wife "by his 90th nameday", and then we see him with a new wife when we reach the Twins near the end of book/Season 1, after he has turned 90. Early in book 3, it is also said that Walder will be turning 92 "soon". So he apparently has a nameday in the middle of the year. Given that he tends to appear near the end of seasons I wouldn't clutter this, so the simple way of saying it is that he is 90 in Season 1, and thus 93 in Season 4. Thus placing his birth, as in the books, in the year 208 AL.
Major Issue 3 - The rate at which time progresses in the TV seriesEdit
In the novels, book 3 A Storm of Swords takes place about two years after book 1. The first novel began in 298 AL, and Joffrey's wedding to Margaery was timed to be on New Year's Day 300 AL (to ring in the glorious new Lannister century). Walder Frey turned 90 in book 1, is stated to have turned 92 in book 3, etc. Moreover, the Appendices between book 1 and book 4 list characters as about two years old (Arya goes from 9 in book one to listed as 11 in book four...or the start of book four, at least). Books four and five take place simultaneously (more or less).
The TV series split the events of book 3 into two full TV seasons, Season 3 and Season 4, making the events seems more stretched out. Events from books 4-5 are simply presented in order. Originally, Martin wanted to make a 5 year time jump between book 3 and book 4, but later decided against it. Otherwise, there haven't been any explicit large time jumps in the novels (of a year or more; obviously weeks or months sometimes pass between POV chapters).
We have no official word on the rate at which time progresses in the TV series.
Some pieces of evidence:
- In Season 2, Renly switches to saying that Robert's Rebellion was 18 years ago, not 17 years ago, indicating that one year has passed.
- In late Season 3, just prior to the Red Wedding, Brynden Tully remarks that the war has lasted for about two years at this point.
This sort of indicates that time moves more slowly in the TV series than the novels, at least in the case of splitting book 3 into two: a lot of events happened in rapid succession in book three, the TV series split this into two full seasons.
Sansa says she's only 14 years old in Season 3, however...one year older than in Season 1? Ignoring the fact that Brynden said that the war has otherwise been going on for two years? Maybe she just didn't pass her nameday that year yet.
Cersei incongruously says in Season 4's "First of His Name" that she has been queen for 19 years...she was queen for 17 years in Season 1. A difference of a few months or so, as in the case of Sansa, are hard to judge....they said "two years" near the end of Season 3, Cersei says this at Tommen's coronation in Season 4 which is still not that long after the Red Wedding and Joffrey's death. So who knows, maybe they're rounding.
Generally, what we can firmly establish is:
- One year elapses between Season 1 and 2
- One year elapses between Season 2 and 3
After the Red Wedding, our timing gets tricky: the central question is, did the rate at which time progresses slow down without the writers making it clear?
- In Season 4, Littlefinger says Robert's Rebellion occurred "20 years ago". Yes, he could have been rounding....but if a "one TV season equals one year" rule is still in effect, that means it's 3 years since Season 1, when the war was 17 years ago....indeed, making it exactly 20 years ago.
- Myrcella is stated to have been in Dorne for "years" in Season 5, and she left for Dorne in Season 2. Yes this could possibly refer to as few as two years - in which scenario one more year confirmed to pass by Season 3, thus all events of Seasons 4 and 5 within a single year? Not sure. The context sounds more like "years" as in "three years", but this is arguing semantics.
Gilly's baby, born in Season 3, stubbornly remains a baby after 3 TV seasons, despite the fact that younger characters such as Arya Stark are also physically aging.
- 1 - It generally seems that the TV series follows a "one TV season equals one year of story time" principle.
- 2 - On-screen dialogue confirmed that two years pass between Season 1 and Season 3.
- 3 -...we can't be sure if the rate that time progresses suddenly slowed down in Season 4 onwards.
- 4 - While the TV series does seem to be following a one season = one year principle, I don't think the writers are doing a good job of keeping track of it (again, what the heck's the deal with Gilly's baby?)
We're sticking with the one TV season equals one year principle, until proven otherwise (if someone can build a list of citations to quoted dialogue from throughout the TV series building up an alternate timeline).
How Time Could Work In The Game Of Thrones Universe
Hello, this is concerning the way time works in the Game Of Thrones Universe, I believe that it has been about a year and a half since Season 1.
- I concluded this with simple math and statements given by the characters, one of the most defining one was given in Season 3, when Sansa Stark, or somebody else talking about her said she was 14, the subject mater came up when they were discussing her upcoming marriage to Tyrion Lannister It had already been started previously during a conversation in the beginning of Season 1 between Sansa Stark and Cersei Lannister that she was 13, so that means only a year had passed since the beginning of Season 1, and the ending of Season 3.
- Another statement I can refer to was given by Jaime Lannister also in Season 3 he states that he has been locked up for almost a year, I counted back from that episode to the episode Jaime was captured, it had been about 18 episodes since then.
- In the second episode of Season 1 Catelyn Stark said something along the lines of "I've been sitting here waiting for a month." After that I came to the conclusion that two episodes equaled a month.
So from the proof I have given you, you can plainly see it's only been two and half years since Season 1. At the most we can say that it has been around 3 years since Season 3, can somebody please just contact the creators of the show and ask them? I think that all the ages should be changed, that the timelines are changed, and anything to do with age or time are fixed properly. Thank you, if you have further questions, or need my to change ages, timelines, etc. myself please contact me about it on my user talk page-http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:DaniellaP!nk, or further the discussion here. ---DaniellaP!nk (talk) 07:31, April 5, 2016 (UTC).
As stated above, Sansa saying she was 14 at her wedding was incongruous with other statements about time in the TV series.
- Brynden Tully states right before the Red Wedding that the war has being going on for two years - late Season 1 to late Season 3. Thus, Seasons 2 and 3 last two years.
- This is corroborated by Renly saying 18 years instead of 17 years since Robert's Rebellion - one year passes between the start of Season 1 and early Season 2 - a season lasts a year (at this point at least).
So no, at the very least, it is impossible for it to be a year and a half since Season 1.
...also when you say "it has been"....do you mean Season 6? I'm confused. You're saying you think Season 6 takes place a year and a half after Season 1?
What episode in Season 3 did Jaime specifically say he'd been locked for for a year, with cited dialogue? -- In fact I think he was locked up for a year....from late Season 1 to when he was released in late Season 2.
...when Jaime says "I was a prisoner for a year" (or something to that effect)....he said that months after his release. The same as if during *Season 5* he said "the Starks held me prisoner for a year". Not the immediately preceding 12 month period from the point he uttered that.
You also didn't explain the start and end point of these "18 episodes": Jaime was captured in Season 1 episode 9 "Baelor". You didn't cite what episode he said "I've been a prisoner for a year" in...but let's see...9 + 18 = 27 --- episode 7 of Season 3. Checking a transcript, Jaime didn't say anything about how long he was held prisoner in that episode.
Using simple math...Jaime was taken prisoner in Season 1 episode 9 "Baelor", and was released by Catelyn in Season 2 episode 8 "The Prince of Winterfell" ---- meaning that he was prisoner for 9 episodes, not 18 episodes. How did you arrive at 18 episodes?
Next, "counting backwards" might not be entirely accurate: while "one TV season equals roughly a year", it apparently isn't evenly spaced between every episode, or for every character. You based it on one comment Catelyn made that "I've been waiting here for a month" to decide that a month passes between two episodes....you didn't demonstrate that this is a consistent pattern. Some episodes start immediately after the preceding one - others state that weeks or months pass between them --- but you have to prove that it's a consistent increment of time between each of them (and we've seen that it isn't).
- You cited exactly one instance when it was stated that a month passed between two episodes (for Catelyn specifically) and concluded from this that "one episode equals one month".
- You say you took a point when Jaime said he'd been prisoner for "one year" in late Season 3...despite the fact that he'd been freed in late Season 2, and was referring to a past event.
- You then "counted backwards" for how many episodes there had been since this comment in late Season 3 to when Jaime was captured in late Season 1, and arrived at 18 episodes. You then assigned one month to each episode (more or less) to arrive at 18 months, half a year, by "now".
- In fact, Jaime was prisoner for 9 episodes...generally fitting the principle that a 10 episode TV season equals roughly a year (give or take a few weeks). Which indeed, indicates that about one year passed between late Season 1 and late Season 2.
- .....you only counted "it's been a year and a half" to when Jaime SAID THAT at the end of Season 3....then you say that it has been "two and a half years" since Season 1 by "now" -- you mean Season 6? So you're saying that Season 4 *and* Season 5 both lasted only one more year? Which going by your "one episode equals one month" concept would be 20 months, and far closer to two years?
Now going by your edits to the main page just now, you think:
- Season 1 - 298 AL
- Season 2 - 298 AL
- Season 3 - 298-299 AL
- Season 4 - 299 AL
- Season 5 - 299 AL
- Season 6 - 300 AL
I.e. that the first five seasons span about two and a half years.
We can be sure with reasonable confidence that Season 3 ends about two years after Season 1 ended, meaning 3 years pass between the start of Season 1 and the start of Season 4. Now I will allow that maybe Seasons 4 and 5 "slowed down" without the writers making it clear, in which case time isn't progressing at a constant rate. Even so, you're saying everything from Joffrey's assassination to Cersei's walk of shame - not to mention Tyrion's journey to Meereen - all took place in a six month time period?
"At the most we can say that it has been around 3 years since Season 3, can somebody please just contact the creators of the show and ask them?"
What do you think we've been trying to do?
They ignore such Q&A requests. Last month, I even attended a live event at Herald Square with a press pass, but writer Dave Hill left without taking questions. I e-mailed in a list of Q&A to HBO Media but they wrote back saying they categorically aren't accepting any and wouldn't even forward it.
"just contact the creators"....when was the last time you can specifically point to of an online interview on a news site or whatever in which the TV writers responded to such Q&A? Over a year, closer to two, in the case of Bryan Cogman, while Benioff and Weiss notoriously don't give Q&A.
We wouldn't be stuck guessing the timline like this if we could simply ask.
I'm sorry about all of this, I really am, but we're kind of stuck :)
Rethinking The Timelines
Okay, for starters sorry, I made a slight mix up when I was stating facts and other stuff, what I meant to say was it's been three years since the beginning of Season 1, and that during the beginning of Season 6, or at the end of Season 5 we will soon be arriving, or have already arrived at 4 years. Sorry about the mix up about the dates of Jaime's release, I thought he wasn't released until' Season 3 Episode 6 The Climb, I later cheeked back and learned I was incorrect. I would also like to point out that in the episode First of His Name, Season 4 Episode 5 Cersei states that she hasn't seen Myrcella in over a year, I counted back from that episode to the episode Myrcella left for Dorne which was Season 2 episode The Old Gods And The New, I counted 20 episode that would mean two years if the whole a season equals a year thing applied because each season of Game Of Thrones has been 10 episodes long so far. That means that it hasn't been two years yet or Cersei would of said that she hasn't seen Myrcella in a two years, I personally believe it has been A year and 9 months since Myrcella left for Dorne. A person has pointed out something to be about what he believe the timeline may be like, he said...
"I always assumed it was something like this
Season 1 - one year
Season 2 - about 4 months
Season 3 - about 4 months
Season 4 - a month or two
Season 5 - about 5 months
The one season = one year thing this wiki uses is just ridiculous. Arya and Sandor didn't spend a year travelling from the Twins to the Eyrie, nor did Sansa spend a year at Winterfell with the Boltons."
If he is correct that means it's been somewhere around 3 months and two years since the beginning of Season 1, I do feel that it may have been longer then that, as I said before I think we could be soon reaching 4 years in the beginning of Season 6, or we already reached it at the end of Season 5. I think it could be something more along the lines of each season being 6 months long, with one of the season equaling a year, probably Season 1. Or it could be 20 episode = around a year and a half to a year and nine months. Thanks for listening --DaniellaP!nk (talk) 21:02, April 5, 2016 (UTC)
No. The general idea is "one season equals one year", but not that each episode is an equal increment of time...given that some episodes begin one after another and others skip weeks.
Cersei said "over a year" since she saw Myrcella...yeah, verging on two -- it's vague enough it proves nothing.
To reiterate: YES, the TV writers aren't keeping good track of this. Particularly that when they split book 3 in half it lengthened the back half interminably in Season 3 (Arya and Sandor). But they're not all consistent.
We're provisionally using the one TV season principle...and will drop it like a dead weight if the TV writers ever specify anything. YES this is near the top of our list of Q&A. But they don't give interviews.
We can't just make up "this feels like six months"....we have to go by actual statements about the passage of time.
And again: even if that it is the case in Seasons 4-5, we know fairly solidly that "one TV season equals one year" held true in Seasons 1, 2, and 3. Though the writers may later say the story slowed down, we can't invent an answer.
For the sake of argument, what if Season 4 slowed down? Then how long would you say it was? Six months? Why not five why not seven? Why not ten weeks or ten days?
We have to say something, we can't just leave it vague and unanswered (which is apparently how the TV writers were ignoring the issue).....and all you've really said is "it feels like six months". We go by citable evidence.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:45, April 6, 2016 (UTC)
- No, we really don't. The wiki has no mandate whatsoever to invent a dating system. Just stick to the facts as they are presented. Sansa is 12 in season one, Olyvar is 25 in season four, etc. - 17:10, April 6, 2016 (UTC)
- "Abandon any attempt at a dating system" is not an option. "One TV season = one year" will be used provisionally until the instant a writer ever says otherwise. I can't really say any more.
- I hope to keep using "one TV season = one year" on a provisional level...but I'll defer to whatever the other Admins conclude. I sympathize with your frustration, Xanderen.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:30, April 6, 2016 (UTC)
- Can I ask why not? Why is simple honesty such an unpalatable option? It's like me saying - "Let's start referring to Sandor and Gregor's father as "Rodrick Clegane" (A name I just invented). The show writer's mention him, but don't provide a name, so... We have to say something, right? People come here for information!" Obviously, it's an absurd position to take, just as yours is. Your dating system just doesn't mesh with events in the show... take season four, for example - The Purple Wedding takes place less than two weeks after episode one (Margaery says so)... for your system to be accurate Tyrion would have to have been imprisoned for a whole year! Clearly he was not incarcerated for anywhere near that long... he doesn't wash or change his clothes, and his hair and beard don't grow. It's a ludicrous argument that we should knowingly provide false information rather than just stick to what we actually know. - 12:03, April 8, 2016 (UTC)
Fat Walda Bolton's child in Season 6:
Minor note that occurred, not that it solves anything:
Roose Bolton said he was betrothed to marry Walder Frey's daughter Fat Walda at the Red Wedding, at the end of Season 3. Walda says she's pregnant in mid-Season 5 (though not how far along she is), and she gives birth in early Season 6.
If nothing else...early Season 6 cannot be less than 9 months after the end of Season 3.
Council to Decide the Television Continuity CalendarEdit
There has been a lot of debate about the timeline of events presented in the TV series, at what rate time passes. Particularly with regard to character ages, such as Tommen, Gilly's son, etc.
We know with reasonable certainty that Season 2 is one year after Season 1, and Season 3 is one year after Season 2. Season 4 onwards things are less sure. At the very least due to Walda Bolton's pregnancy around a year or so passes between early Season 4 and early Season 6.
At the moment, this is not the "Council to decide the TV Continuity Calendar", but announcing that it is coming and setting a date.
Originally I intended to just keep using the assumption that 1 TV season equals 1 year until proven otherwise, possibly in the hope this would draw attention to the problem. Instead this is only leading to more debate, because it needs the attention of the TV writers, not us.
The point is we're wasting finite time resources arguing about it.
So here's what's going to happen now:
- 1 - We're busy enough handling new Season 6 material as it is so we can't really launch a new major overhaul right now.
- 2 - We have seven more episodes of Season 6, in which they might give some more statements about the passage of time. Thus we might as well wait for them to finish - also because we really can't do more until they finish.
- 3 - In the aftermath of Season 6, in a matter of weeks during June or July once things have settled (not September)....if nothing else has been confirmed about the timeline by then...we'll hold a council/vote to formalize adoption of a new dating system.
- 4 - This dating system will be neutral: instead of referring to something which occurred in Season 1 as occurring in "298 AL", we will instead refer to it as occurring in...."Season 1", in the infobox itself. We'll treat the name "Season 1" as itself a date. This shifts the burden to the main Timeline/Season page instead of having to update each individual page. This only affects events within the TV series itself; prior events such as the Greyjoy Rebellion will be treated as occurring in "289 AL", because we're still treating Season 1 as occurring in 298 AL.
This does not solve the issue of character ages such as Tommen, or even Arya.
For some characters such as Arya, we'll simply put "stated to be 11 years old in Season 1", and make no attempt to guess at her current age.
Tommen is very much an exceptional case, and we'll leave a big note-tag explaining how "he was stated to be 8 in Season 1 but we really think this was retconned when he got recast" etc.
The point of this message is that I've agreed to shift from a position of "use 1 TV season equals 1 year until proven otherwise" to "unless we hear anything new, yes, we'll switch to a neutral dating system after Season 6 wraps up".
When the hype from the finale has simmered down a bit we need to readdress this. Lyanna Mormont is still ten years old in season six, which means "1 season = 1 year" is demonstrably false... well, more so than it already was. - 08:32, June 27, 2016 (UTC)