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| + | ==TV-Tyene is a condensation of book-Tyene with book-Elia Sand== |
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| − | == White Tyene? == |
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| − | ''"The SDCC 2014 press release described Tyene as the daughter of Oberyn and Ellaria - which is very confusing: Oberyn is a "salty Dornishman" and Ellaria is a "sandy Dornishman", both non-white characters. If TV-Tyene is indeed Ellaria's daughter, they ''cast'' her based on her biography in the novels, then when they changed her TV series biography they did not recast accordingly."'' |
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| + | TV-Tyene is basically a condensation/combination of book-Tyene with book-Elia Sand. |
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| − | That makes absolutely no sense. Rosabell Laurenti Sellers is Italian. Pedro Pascal is Chilean. Indira Varma is half-Indian half-Swiss (though of Italian descent.) Spaniards (and descendants of them) and Italians look pretty much alike —as a Spaniard, I can assure you of that. Southerners in both countries are more tanned and look “less white”, and Northerners pretty much all look pale and rosy, though very few of us are blonde. Anyway, whatever you call it, the point is Pascal and Sellers (and half of Varma) are of a very similar ethnicity. Tyene could easily be the daughter of Ellaria and Oberyn. It’s not even unlikely; this is not a matter of suspension of disbelief, or accepting it as TV-reality —it’s 100% believable, because the actors DO in fact share a very close ethnicity. —[[User:ArticXiongmao|ArticXiongmao]] ([[User talk:ArticXiongmao|talk]]) 23:44, March 2, 2015 (UTC) |
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| + | Oberyn had Obara, Nymeria, and ''presumably'' Sarella by previous women, before he "settled in" with Ellaria and had the last five Sand Snakes - of which Tyene is the eldest, ''then'' Elia Sand. |
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| − | 1 - I wrote this too quickly while on a break in school and need to fix the wording. |
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| + | okay.... |
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| − | 2 - ....Sellers looks much lighter skinned than Pascal or Varma. |
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| − | Italy and Spain both have ethnic continuums. It would make no difference to me if Sellers is from Spain or Italy. |
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| − | Pretending that Sellers was said to be "from Spain"....I'd say she looks like she's from northern Spain, despite being cast to play the daughter of TWO characters from southern Spain. |
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| + | That's wrong. Tyene's actress has said she's the third eldest Sand Snake, not the fourth. Oberyn didn't "settle in" with Ellaria... sexually. They're basically man and wife, but neither of them are monogamous, and I didn't see them use condoms. She had Tyene with Ellaria, then Sarella with presumably a ship captain as in the books, and then the 4 youngest with Ellaria. 8 Sand Snakes are canon as per 4x05; the actresses have said the three of them are the 3 eldest Sand Snakes. There's no way around that, and considering Oberyn's and Ellaria's relationship, there doesn't need to be. So, it's not D&D who are making the Sand Snakes more confusing here. So please, change this in the family tree, since that's the only place where I can't edit out this mistake. —[[User:ArticXiongmao|ArticXiongmao]] ([[User talk:ArticXiongmao|talk]]) 06:41, April 9, 2015 (UTC) |
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| − | No, Tyene doesn't look like she's the daughter of Ellaria and Oberyn, based on the actors' appearances. |
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| + | I think she meant third eldest ''of the ones we see in Season 5'', though admittedly we have no idea what's going on with Sarella. |
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| − | Sellers doesn't look particularly dark skinned or even olive-skinned. I've seen darker/tan skinned Italians before and she isn't one of them. |
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| + | ...and book-Tyene was older.... |
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| − | NO, they do not "share close ethnicity" - you ''just'' said that "ethnicity" in Italy and Spain are fluid and on a continuum... |
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| − | let me get terminology correct here: we're talking phenotype, not genotype. Whatever ethnic origins Sellers has, based on the photos I have seen of her (including the few we've seen in full costume).....'''from empirical observation, she doesn't look as dark skinned as Oberyn and Ellaria'''. |
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| + | ==Please un-block the page== |
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| − | ...do you claim that based purely on appearance, Sellers appears to be roughly the same ethnicity as Pascal and Varma?--[[User:The Dragon Demands|The Dragon Demands]] ([[User talk:The Dragon Demands|talk]]) 07:12, March 3, 2015 (UTC) |
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| + | Because I wish to add some information (no spoilers, of course).[[Special:Contributions/109.64.195.206|109.64.195.206]] 16:28, March 13, 2016 (UTC) |
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| + | == Main pic == |
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| + | Does anybody have a better picture? I'm not too fond of this one at present because it makes her look rather spacy, dumbfounded, etc. [[User:Shaneymike|Shaneymike]] ([[User talk:Shaneymike|talk]]) 23:09, July 20, 2016 (UTC) |
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| − | Well, of course I do. You seem to be quite ignorant about this. My father, a Spaniard technically born in the North but with parents from the South, wouldn’t look out of place in Dorne, or any Arab country, especially when he tans. His siblings, however, wouldn’t. At all. One of them is blonde! My mother, a Northerner, is blonde and has blue eyes. Their offspring? I have green eyes, dark blonde hair, and pale skin. My brother has dark hair and blue eyes. |
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| + | == Status == |
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| − | Tyene could easily be the daughter of Ellaria and Oberyn. It’s not even unlikely. They pretty much all look like the same ethnicity, except maybe Ellaria, who looks more Indian and naturally darker-skinned (Pedro Pascal IS and LOOKS white outside the show; he was just tanned and had makeup for the role.) This is not a matter of suspension of disbelief, or accepting it as TV-reality; it’s 100% believable, because the actors do in fact share a very close ethnicity. I see more unlikely-looking off-springs every day where I’m from. |
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| + | Similar to [[Unella]], I'm pretty sure her "current" status is uncertain until it is 100% confirmed, the same with [[Ellaria Sand]]'s. The last we saw, she was alive, and it was told it was unknown how long the poison would take. I think an Uncertain status would be more appropriate, though perhaps we can wait for the Viewer's Guide to come out and see what it lists - since I suppose the same argument could be made for [[Olenna Tyrell]] (though I'm pretty sure it was implied that poison was supposed to be quick and more immediate...). [[User:Reddyredcp|Reddyredcp]] ([[User talk:Reddyredcp|talk]]) 13:27, July 31, 2017 (UTC) |
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| + | :I don't think we're going to need more confirmation of Olenna's death, her story has ended and her death is certain, even if it is not shown. She exited the show with her head held high and I doubt we'll get a shot of her corpse in the next episode. Olenna realized she had lost and was ready to die, there was no way out for her. |
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| + | :With Tyene, I agree because it is uncertain how long the poison will take for her. If I remember correctly, Bronn had hours if not days before the poison showed effect so Tyene might actually be alive. |
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| − | As for why Tyene looks paler than his father; any reason! If you really wanna justify it for some reason, fine: considering her character, maybe she spends more time reading and less time under the sun! And hey, anyway, the comments on "The Watchers on the Wall" prove you're literally, literally, the only one who seems to have this issue, the only one who doesn't find it believable. Have you considered, per chance, that you are simply wrong? I don't think you realize how ridiculous this complaint ks from a production standpoint: "Oh, we found the perfect actress for the role... Pity, her skin tone is half a shade too pale, we simply cannot cast her!". Ludicrous. —[[User:ArticXiongmao|ArticXiongmao]] ([[User talk:ArticXiongmao|talk]]) 08:22, March 3, 2015 (UTC) |
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| + | :Ellaria is not even in danger, Cersei promised to make sure that she lives a long life in her dungeons. She is definitely alive. |
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| + | :--[[User:Grizzhly|Grizzhly]] ([[User talk:Grizzhly|talk]]) 13:36, July 31, 2017 (UTC) |
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| + | I agree about Olenna -- I only brought her up as a similar example and a counterargument in case someone tried to make it. [[User:Reddyredcp|Reddyredcp]] ([[User talk:Reddyredcp|talk]]) 13:41, July 31, 2017 (UTC) |
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| − | ....I'm not sure if you understand what I'm saying: to a certain extent, you can have in a narrative a father who is blonde, a mother who is blonde, and their child have black hair, and just assume that they look like one of their grandparents. |
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| + | ::The actress playing Ellaria has confirmed her exit from the show. By the end of the last episode a considerable amount of time had passed since Ellaria was first locked up (as Euron's ship the Silence can be seen attacking the Unsullied fleet). Both Ellaria and Tyene are dead and should be considered as so. [[User:Xx-connor-xX|Xx-connor-xX]] ([[User talk:Xx-connor-xX|talk]]) 14:00, July 31, 2017 (UTC) |
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| + | :the actress's exiting the show is not the same thing as the character being dead. - {{Xanderen/signature}} 14:10, July 31, 2017 (UTC) |
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| − | It's a bit more difficult to do this with different races, i.e. two blonde European looking parents suddenly having a sub-saharan black child, with ''zero'' mention that they had a black grandparent. This is of course not as drastic in Dorne or Spain which has a long history of intermarriage (the Martells do have some Andal DNA rattling around in their background). |
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| + | :::Even if Ellaria is never seen again in the show, that does not mean that she is dead. Cersei has no intention to kill her, Ellaria will be provided with food and water and even be force-fed if she tries to starve herself to death. Cersei said that she wants Ellaria to live a long life next to the decomposing body of her daughter, so there is no reason to assume that Ellaria has died somehow or will do so in the forseeable future. --[[User:Grizzhly|Grizzhly]] ([[User talk:Grizzhly|talk]]) 14:12, July 31, 2017 (UTC) |
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| − | ...even so, '''you are contradicting yourself''': First, you claimed the Sellers-Tyene looks "ethnically similar" to TV-Oberyn and TV-Ellaria. ...Then in your next sentence you shift to saying that Sellers-Tyene indeed looks "paler" than TV-Oberyn, but wave this aside saying she could easily just resemble a grandparent. |
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| + | HBO Viewer's Guide website lists Tyene as deceased. It doesn't list Ellaria as deceased given that Cersei plans to torment her alive. We will follow this for both.--[[User:The Dragon Demands|The Dragon Demands]] ([[User talk:The Dragon Demands|talk]]) 16:48, July 31, 2017 (UTC) |
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| − | Now I'm just plain confused: the question is simple. Do you think that Sellers looks like Oberyn and Ellaria? |
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| − | If "No", a separate and entirely separate question would be, "are they going to say that she looks like a grandparent or something?" -- and Third...why would they bother with making such a convoluted explanation, instead of just casting an actress that looks more like Ellaria?--[[User:The Dragon Demands|The Dragon Demands]] ([[User talk:The Dragon Demands|talk]]) 09:00, March 3, 2015 (UTC) |
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| − | ''And hey, anyway, the comments on "The Watchers on the Wall" prove you're literally, literally, the only one who seems to have this issue, the only one who doesn't find it believable. Have you considered, per chance, that you are simply wrong? I don't think you realize how ridiculous this complaint ks from a production standpoint: "Oh, we found the perfect actress for the role... Pity, her skin tone is half a shade too pale, we simply cannot cast her!". Ludicrous.'' |
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| − | ....in the comments section on a single fan news site, ''in a single day'', I made a few points and they didn't generate many replies....leading you to conclude that no one has ever raised this issue? |
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| − | Have...have you been following the threads on this at Westeros.org? |
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| − | Did you watch the Westeros.org Season 5 casting response video, which pointed out the criticism I am making now? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q69aQeKWLQ |
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| − | Okay, this was my fault for making a crappy quick edit in the first place, I should have had citations to begin with, but I have them in now. |
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| − | I just put in the better thought out note about TV-Tyene's casting, and it cites the specific time in Elio and Linda's video in which they point out 1 - how odd it is that Sellers doesn't really look like TV-Oberyn or TV-Ellaria, and more importantly 2 - There were so many odd things in the SDCC 2014 press release, and particularly that bizarre "no comment" reply to what should have been a simple confirmation, that Tyene is officially "on hold" -- we're not considering those statements to be true until we actually hear any further word from HBO (frankly I'm more inclined to think the press release was just in error).--[[User:The Dragon Demands|The Dragon Demands]] ([[User talk:The Dragon Demands|talk]]) 09:38, March 3, 2015 (UTC) |
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| − | --- |
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| − | I think you (and Elio and Linda, for that matter —whose opinion is a reputable source in this matter... why exactly? If anything, your own opinion as an administrator of the Wiki was more relevant than whatever they think) are hopelessly confused about the matter of ethnicity and appearance. |
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| − | You wanna talk phenotypes? Fine, I'd be happy to! Yes, Tyene could easily be Oberyn and Ellaria's daughter. Simultaneously, she is indeed paler. If you think that is in any way a contradiction, I can only fathom that you must live in a place where people are all the same race and all have the same level of exposure to the sun (and you're a New Yorker, if I remember correctly, so I know that's not the case.) I'm pale as fuck, right now. I haven't gotten out much, you see, and I live in Northern Spain so it's constantly raining right now, and when it isn't there's still no sun. My dad was tan until recently, and as I told you he usually looks like an Arab. Right now he's almost as pale as I am, and he now looks... well, white, because he's not tan. Is this difficult to grasp? How tan one is doesn't have ''that much'' to do with ethnicity, unless you're black. In any case, even if you were right (which you aren't) and it was mildly unrealistic that TV-Tyene was TV-Oberyn's and TV-Ellaria's daughter, the fact is that they liked the actress and they stuck with her, and her acting is more important than the fact that she looks too pale for you. That's the kind of silly fanboy criticism that is laughed at in any genuine film analysis conversation. |
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| − | Oh, and you're insisting they're "different races." As I pointed out, THEY AREN'T. Oberyn's actor is of Spaniard heritage. Ellaria's actress is half-Italian. Tyene's actress is Italian. So... how are they different races, exactly? They have had different levels of exposure to the sun; they're pretty much the same race. |
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| − | Anyway: as I told you, if you REALLY want to justify it (for some reason), Tyene must spend more time in-doors (as I do) than her parents do, and so she is paler. Maybe she reads the Seven-Pointed Star a lot. Hm... I wonder, isn't that like her whole point in the book? Also, she's supposed to look virginal, untouched, innocent, in the books at least; as fucked up as that is, in that society that would involve not working under the sun and hence looking pale (as Oberyn says in the show about a whore in King's Landing: "they like them pale in the capital; it shows they don't work the fields", which is very much a real life thing too, at least until recently.) And anyway, it's not like she's THAT pale. Does the following REALLY look so unrealistically pale to you? |
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| − | http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20150303105720/gameofthrones/images/8/83/Tyene.jpg |
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| − | As for the supposed incongruities in the HBO press release, I think we'll know soon enough if any of it was wrong. I mean, of course it isn't, and Trystane is the heir and Tyene has been made Ellaria's daughter; those mistakes couldn't have been made by accident. The only mistake was suggesting the marriage plan was Tywin's, not Tyrion's, and that's an understandable mistake that involves switching a single name, as opposed to the other supposed mistakes. But if you wanna believe that, good for you. In a month or two we'll know the truth :) |
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| − | If you turn out to be wrong, will you agree to delete this criticism, or must this shameful editorializing remain in the Wiki forever, just as the ridiculous amount of text dedicated solely to the Tysha "controversy" in the 'The Children' page, just because you and people like you —Elio and Linda, other purists— found it egregious? I find other stuff egregious in the show, and many other people do as well. Can I use half a page of an episode exploring the issue at my leisure? Oh... I thought not. Maybe it's because I'm not an administrator. Then again, if I was, I wouldn't editorialize so much. This is a wiki. You shouldn't, either. —[[User:ArticXiongmao|ArticXiongmao]] ([[User talk:ArticXiongmao|talk]]) 10:59, March 3, 2015 (UTC) |
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| − | 1 - So your official position is "I acknowledge the Sellers-Tyene doesn't look like Oberyn and Ellaria". Yes, she could plausibly be their daughter and look like a grandparent - but why introduce such a complication when it's actually less simple than either A - casting someone who looks like Ellaria or B - saying she isn't Ellaria's daughter? Did they really think "I'm the daughter of this foreign Septa that Oberyn met" is more complex than "I don't look like Ellaria but I look like one of my grandparent" etc. |
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| − | 2 - Confirmation is going to be a great thing but if it turns out I'm wrong and they confirm that she's Ellaria's daughter, yes a note will remain pointing out that its odd that she doesn't look like Ellaria due to an adaptation condensation. That is the point of the "in the books sections". No, the TV series does not exist in isolation but we retain notes and comparisons with the novels. |
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| − | I mean, as a matter of "representation", stand back and ask yourself: the only major "woman of color"/non-white woman in Westeros the show has depicted is Ellaria. Only one of Ellaria's daughters is set to appear on-screen if this is the case....and they'll cast a white actress, white-passable actress. So we don't get a character dynamic, mother-daughter dynamic, between two non-white Westerosi characters....why? YES Ellaria could have a daughter that looks closer to white - I mean, even in the books, one of the younger ones like Loreza might turn out that way, just taking after a grandparent. But why would you? |
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| − | I do think Pedro Pascal was fine for the role, but taken to an extreme, does Martin Sheen "count" as a Hispanic actor, if the character he portrays is white-passable? |
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| − | It just seems illogical and needlessly complicated due to an adaptation condensation. |
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| − | 3-There are points when things verge on "editorializing" (that Alex Graves writeup I did but even I was unsatisfied with so I deleted it). |
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| − | One of the central principles of Game of Thrones Wiki is "we're going to compare it to the books". You don't believe in this but actively challenge it. Particularly, that note about Tysha on "the Children" was there because it was such a large part of a major character that....the analogy I'd use is if Star Wars was a book adaptation, and Vader cuts Luke's hand off as the climax to part two, while omitting any revelation that he's actually his father. It's "the elephant in the room" and we NEED to address it. |
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| − | ...Elio and Linda of Westeros.org are co-authors of ''The World of Ice and Fire'', fact-checkers for and collaborators with Martin. They maintain and set policy for the Wiki of Ice and Fire that we interlink with. YES they are a major authority, far moreso than myself. You are in no position to disregard their views.--[[User:The Dragon Demands|The Dragon Demands]] ([[User talk:The Dragon Demands|talk]]) 14:41, March 3, 2015 (UTC) |
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Latest revision as of 14:54, 4 August 2017
TV-Tyene is a condensation of book-Tyene with book-Elia Sand
TV-Tyene is basically a condensation/combination of book-Tyene with book-Elia Sand.
Oberyn had Obara, Nymeria, and presumably Sarella by previous women, before he "settled in" with Ellaria and had the last five Sand Snakes - of which Tyene is the eldest, then Elia Sand.
okay....
So that means TV-Tyene is the fourth Sand Snake.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:54, April 9, 2015 (UTC)
Ironic how in their effort to make the Sand Snakes less confusing, they have made them more confusing... - Son Of Fire (talk) 06:28, April 9, 2015 (UTC)
That's wrong. Tyene's actress has said she's the third eldest Sand Snake, not the fourth. Oberyn didn't "settle in" with Ellaria... sexually. They're basically man and wife, but neither of them are monogamous, and I didn't see them use condoms. She had Tyene with Ellaria, then Sarella with presumably a ship captain as in the books, and then the 4 youngest with Ellaria. 8 Sand Snakes are canon as per 4x05; the actresses have said the three of them are the 3 eldest Sand Snakes. There's no way around that, and considering Oberyn's and Ellaria's relationship, there doesn't need to be. So, it's not D&D who are making the Sand Snakes more confusing here. So please, change this in the family tree, since that's the only place where I can't edit out this mistake. —ArticXiongmao (talk) 06:41, April 9, 2015 (UTC)
I think she meant third eldest of the ones we see in Season 5, though admittedly we have no idea what's going on with Sarella.
...and book-Tyene was older....
yeah, screw it, put Sarella down as fourth...we'll wait for them to clarify this.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:02, April 9, 2015 (UTC)
Please un-block the page
Because I wish to add some information (no spoilers, of course).109.64.195.206 16:28, March 13, 2016 (UTC)
Main pic
Does anybody have a better picture? I'm not too fond of this one at present because it makes her look rather spacy, dumbfounded, etc. Shaneymike (talk) 23:09, July 20, 2016 (UTC)
Status
Similar to Unella, I'm pretty sure her "current" status is uncertain until it is 100% confirmed, the same with Ellaria Sand's. The last we saw, she was alive, and it was told it was unknown how long the poison would take. I think an Uncertain status would be more appropriate, though perhaps we can wait for the Viewer's Guide to come out and see what it lists - since I suppose the same argument could be made for Olenna Tyrell (though I'm pretty sure it was implied that poison was supposed to be quick and more immediate...). Reddyredcp (talk) 13:27, July 31, 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think we're going to need more confirmation of Olenna's death, her story has ended and her death is certain, even if it is not shown. She exited the show with her head held high and I doubt we'll get a shot of her corpse in the next episode. Olenna realized she had lost and was ready to die, there was no way out for her.
- With Tyene, I agree because it is uncertain how long the poison will take for her. If I remember correctly, Bronn had hours if not days before the poison showed effect so Tyene might actually be alive.
- Ellaria is not even in danger, Cersei promised to make sure that she lives a long life in her dungeons. She is definitely alive.
- --Grizzhly (talk) 13:36, July 31, 2017 (UTC)
I agree about Olenna -- I only brought her up as a similar example and a counterargument in case someone tried to make it. Reddyredcp (talk) 13:41, July 31, 2017 (UTC)
- The actress playing Ellaria has confirmed her exit from the show. By the end of the last episode a considerable amount of time had passed since Ellaria was first locked up (as Euron's ship the Silence can be seen attacking the Unsullied fleet). Both Ellaria and Tyene are dead and should be considered as so. Xx-connor-xX (talk) 14:00, July 31, 2017 (UTC)
- the actress's exiting the show is not the same thing as the character being dead. -
14:10, July 31, 2017 (UTC)
- Even if Ellaria is never seen again in the show, that does not mean that she is dead. Cersei has no intention to kill her, Ellaria will be provided with food and water and even be force-fed if she tries to starve herself to death. Cersei said that she wants Ellaria to live a long life next to the decomposing body of her daughter, so there is no reason to assume that Ellaria has died somehow or will do so in the forseeable future. --Grizzhly (talk) 14:12, July 31, 2017 (UTC)
HBO Viewer's Guide website lists Tyene as deceased. It doesn't list Ellaria as deceased given that Cersei plans to torment her alive. We will follow this for both.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:48, July 31, 2017 (UTC)