This page should be "Black Walder Frey", not "Walder Frey (Black)". What naming conventions require it to be "Walder Frey (Black)"? If anything, he's officially credited as "Black Walder".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:41, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
- Naming conventions indicate that the article title must be the character's name and use "(xxxxxxxxx)" for disambiguation, that's the reason we have Brandon Stark (the Builder) and not Bran the Builder and also Rhaenys Targaryen and Rhaenys Targaryen (sister of Aegon I).--Gonzalo84 (talk) 03:35, December 3, 2012 (UTC)
Merging with Walder RiversEdit
Just ignore updated viewer guide? I know it contradicts that book continuity, but does it change anything from the show? It seems to square up that Black Walder Rivers is a composite of Black Walder Frey and Walder Rivers into one and recast from S1. Is he called "Frey" ever on-screen or other behind-the-scenes material? The original casting post from WinterisComing.net site sources it to the actor's website and it's only "Black Walder" there http://www.timplester.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=728 Ardilaun (talk) 02:51, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
We don't know how much input the show's production has over the Viewer's Guide. Until someone like Brian Cogman addresses this issue I vote to keep it as such.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 03:07, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
We have no idea how much input the production team has over the Viewer's Guide. Yes, we need to consider the possibility that the Frey...herd may have certain condensations in the TV series.
But Walder Rivers prominently appeared as a separate character in Season 1.
I mean, if you think about it, the entire argument centers on "Walder Frey has a bastard son also named Walder"...which is sort of like revealing that "the sun rises in the east". How do we know they're the same bastard?
The HBO Viewer's Guide is cited throughout this Wiki as a reputable source so it seems weird to know question it. I would understand and agree with ignoring or at least waiting for some more confirmation if it contradicted the show in a major way, but it's actually is supported by dialogue in the show with the "our father" line said by Lothar when he is talking about himself and Black Walder. http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Lothar_Frey?diff=prev&oldid=121935 That seems like a weird argument to make when rely on an assumption. Do members of one house ever refer to their head as "father" by people who aren't the son or daughter? Nobody is called "the father of House X" but the Lord of House X. If they said our Lord, that's one thing, but our father would just mean our father, right? Which would Black Walder the son of Lord Walder. I cannot find one example in the TV series of father being used to refer to the head of a house by somebody who isn't the son or daughter of that person and guessing it doesn't happen in the book series either. I mean you have both dialogue and the HBO viewer's guide supporting this and seems weird to argue against it.
So there is another aspect of this is whether or not Black Walder Rivers was recast from S1 or that Bryan McCaugherty played a separate character. It seems simpler that it was just recast. I was about to launch into a long point-by-point case for recasting, but I figured there would two questions to check-off first. Is the HBO Viewer's Guide (which the vast majority of times is cited without hesitation especially when it confirms what happened in the books) and confirmed by the dialogue from the show ("our father") is just ignored? If the answer is no and it's okay to start editing the articles to reflect that merger, is anybody really opposed to the idea that Bryan McCaugherty was recast? If you are, that's fine, but I hope to try to discuss it and flesh it out a bit. Ardilaun (talk) 19:06, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, Bryan McCaugherty is not stated to play Walder Rivers. He plays a Frey bastard, with the article name being a conjecture based on age, as Walder Rivers is the eldest Frey bastard. The lines spoken by McCaugherty are spoken in the books by Ryger Rivers, a teenage bastard. As for the Viewer's Guide, it is used as a secondary source.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:13, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
First, I'm sorry if we didn't properly explain that the HBO Viewer's Guide is treated as a secondary source on this wiki. It's treated as a secondary source because Gonzalo84 and I are Admins and we make and enforce that rule, not because it is an abstract principle (it's not as if George R.R. Martin ever gave us a direct order, "Treat the HBO Viewer's Guide as secondary). So you're basically citing Gonzalo84 and myself regarding the Viewer's Guide.
Let me be more clear I'm not trying to argue with you:
Yes, it is possible that the TV continuity may have changed Black Walder to being a bastard son of Walder Frey and not a bastard grandson, as the Viewer's Guide says.
Actually, the in-episode guide from Season 3 also said this. Both are on the same secondary level of canon.
No, the TV series itself has not yet confirmed this.
No, the TV series certainly hasn't established that Black Walder and Season 1's Walder Rivers are a single, condensed character (it might never, if Season 1's Walder Rivers never reappears).
I do not think Lothar's line about "our father" proves anything at all (it would, of course, if Black Walder said it). If Robb Stark was talking about Ned Stark as "our father", I'd think he was just collectively referring to House Stark as a whole, not including uncles or cousins.
- What is the primary source that contradicts what the Viewer's Guide shows? Can you cite an example of Robb saying "our father," since just a quick YouTube clip search for shows that he always says "my father"? I can't think of example that show this as the way people refer to the head of the house while there are plenty other way (Blackfish calls Lord Edmure "nephew" all the time as just one). It just seems like a bit bending over backwards to have the TV and Book continuities fit each other to just ignore the Viewer's Guide or use a weird interpretation of that "our father" line rather just taking it at face value. Then again, DD and G84 know this and feel like it should not changed and I doubt I'm change your mind even though it seems like it should to me. Maybe it change later on or won't. It isn't that big of thing really. Ardilaun (talk) 19:33, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
- You're paying too much heed to the ancillary materials. Yes, we will be on the lookout for this.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:36, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe and I would be more likely to agree if it didn't conflict with the show rather then just being different from the books. But just seems from looking at the edit history like even before the VG came out, somebody (including another admin) took the "our father" line to mean just that, Black Walder was Lord Walder's son and now the VG confirms it. Figured it would be happy news to have it confirmed. Anyhow, we haven't changed each other's mind and that's fine. I can discuss this canon stuff all day really. Ardilaun (talk) 19:42, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
In HBO's "Politics of Power" recap video from Season 3, Michelle Fairley describes Walder Frey sending two sons to Riverrun to treat with Robb. Furthermore, during the meeting itself, when Black Walder insists that the wedding takes place in no more than a fortnight, Brynden looks directly at him and says: "Your father does realise we're fighting a war?" It's also worth pointing out that in the books it is Walder Rivers, and not Black Walder who travels to Riverrun with Lothar. I know a lot of people doubt the validity of the Viewer's Guide, and yes, it sometimes makes mistakes. It remains an official source, however. It's not appropriate for us to ignore it just because we don't like what it says, and it's definitely not appropriate (or encyclopaedic) to deliberately twist and misinterpret quotes from the show in order to justify favouring book canon over TV canon. That's not what we're here for.
- I'd be surprised if the Frey family tree wasn't condensed in the TV series. Hmmm....yes there does seem to be strong corroborating evidence as you've pointed out. We do need to make a change for the TV continuity (though I want to devote my full attention to this soon to figure out out exactly what happened...).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:01, July 6, 2014 (UTC)
To clearly indicate that the TV character is not the same as book Walder Rivers, but is a composite of Walder Rivers and Black Walder, I feel we should retitle this article "Black Walder Rivers" - which is what the HBO Viewer's Guide does.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:15, July 12, 2014 (UTC)