Talk page archives
2010 to 2011 January to March 2012 April to June 2012

Contents 1 Thoros of Myr 2 Comic-Con 3 Religion articles 4 Map images 5 Computer game info 6 Casting 7 Apostrophes 8 Ironborn 9 Stormlands map image 10 Images 11 Absence 12 Faith of the Seven merge 13 Good Game Review 14 All roads lead to King's Landing 15 Concept art 16 Yi Ti 17 Steelshanks 18 Grand Maester 19 Formal vote for banning needs your attention 20 Wikia Alliances 21 Summer Islands and Sothoryos 22 Season 2 deleted scenes 23 TidyNetwork in-text advertisements 24 Vandals Is Coming 25 New Layout 26 Affiliates 27 Layout 28 Pre-emptive Locking 29 Color scheme 30 Wikia front page House game? 31 Starter Guide Video 32 Small world 33 Cersei and Robert's child 34 Hello from Wikia! 35 Irri actress' reason for leaving the show 36 Macumba 37 Starter Guide Video 38 Season 2 quiz 39 CestWhat 40 Knights and Nobility 41 Inactive Admins 42 "Talisa Stark" 43 Kingsguards 44 Princes in the Tower 45 Io9 and the Pilot episode script 46 Making Game of Thrones 47 Skinner 48 Confirmation on Jaehaerys II 49 Recommending Adminship 50 Featured article 51 Selyse's three stillborn sons 52 Black Walder or Walder Rivers? 53 Pixie Le Knot 54 Theon 55 Absence due to Britain trip 56 Talisa

Thoros of MyrEdit

http://eternal0aranel.tumblr.com/post/26434603378/thoros-of-myr-cast

I don't know what to make of it. It's not what he looks like in my head.--Mesmermann 23:28, July 3, 2012 (UTC)

Check this out: http://twitter.com/asimaahmad/status/220103162240053248 Curiouser and curiouser.--The Dragon Demands 23:44, July 3, 2012 (UTC)

Comic-ConEdit

Greetings! You may already know, but GOT will be involved with Comic-Con this year. Wikia will have a physical presence at the 'Con once again, and we've created this badge:

to remind users of this, and provide them with a link to Comic-Con Wiki. There, we will be updating live for the duration of the event with images, info, and exclusives for those users who are unable to be there in person. Would you be willing to allow this badge on the main page here (hopefully at the top of the right column) until the conclusion of the event? Please hit me up on my TALK PAGE and let me know either way so I can add it, or make a note that you've declined affiliation. You're welcome to add it yourself using the code above, but please drop me a note as well so I can track which wikis are participating. Thank you for your time! :)

(profile)•(talk)•(email) 00:55, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

I've added this as it might get us more traffic and doesn't harm the site in any way.--Opark 77 13:41, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Religion articlesEdit

Please weigh in on this discussion, Ser: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Great_Stallion#Content . I've been rounding out the religion articles. Should we have separate articles for "The Seven" and "Faith of the Lord of Light", or follow AWOIAF's convention of "Faith of the Seven" (used as an actual term in thee books), and "Lord of Light"? (because "Faith of the Lord of Light" isn't an actual phrase they use). I'm in favor of treating "Great Stallion", "Drowned God", etc. as the de facto main pages for "Dothraki religion" and "Ironborn religion", given the vast amount of overlap that would result (seriously, how much do we have to say about the specific legends and antics of the Drowned God? He fights with the Storm God. That isn't useful for a whole page....wikis are not paper, but we have to think of ease of navigation (I also made a new Religion navigation template including these names). Please weigh in.--The Dragon Demands 00:06, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Map images Edit

Great job on the map images, they are a big improvement to the location articles and very welcome. You're continued effort on them is very much appreciated.--Opark 77 20:59, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

Computer game infoEdit

Should we make any notes regarding the computer games at all? I thought they were unrelated to the TV series. http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Blackwater_Rush?diff=51819&oldid=39203 --The Dragon Demands 01:53, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

Casting Edit

Any chance you can come on chat so we can co-ordinate writing articles for new cast members?--Opark 77 22:28, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

ApostrophesEdit

Why do you keep using apostrophes as full quotation marks? This should only be done in the case of a quote within a quote. This wiki conforms to standard American English, and unlike British English, regular quotations must be made only with full quotation marks. I've been fixing these whenever I see them. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:14, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

IronbornEdit

My apologies, I didn't realize that lowercase "ironborn" was standard; I got it bacwards and thought it was capitalized. I will now enforce the proper lowercase convention.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:14, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Stormlands map imageEdit

The Stormlands map image needs some adjustment, http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/File_talk:The_Stormlands.png --The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:25, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

Images Edit

I'm still finding problematic images from you, including the latest two from today. Please could you take a look at our image policy. For each image that we use we need to ensure that we have the following information on the image page, all of which should be added by the uploader at the point of upload:

1. The source (naming the video clip or episode for screenshots and providing a URL for images from other websites)
2. A description (state what the image shows)
3. A licensing tag ({{permission}} for screenshots)
4. Appropriate categories (e.g. Category: Image (Valar Morghulis) and Category: Image (Character) for screenshots of characters from "Valar Morghulis", to add categories type [[Category: Image (Valar Morghulis)]])

Please add this information yourself to images that you upload. If you fail to do so I will let you know and nominate the image in question for deletion. I will then review it 1 week later and will be happy if you have added the required information so we can keep it, otherwise I will have to delete it. If you need assistance adding the required information just let me know and I will do my best to help.

I highly recommend working from a template when uploading images. Personally I always copy and paste this for screenshots:

==Summary==
This image is a screencap from "[[EPISODE]]." The image is copyrighted by HBO. This image is used with the permission of HBO but on the understanding that it can be removed at any time. The image shows DESCRIPTION.

==Licensing==
{{Permission}}
[[Category:Image (Character)]]
[[Category:Image (EPISODE)]]

Then I only need to fill in the name of the episode and a brief description. For images from other websites I use this:

==Summary==
This is a promotion image of DESCRIPTION from [URL WEBSITE].

==Licensing==
{{fairuse}}
[[Category:Image (CATEGORY)]]

Then I only need to fill in a description, the source and choose a category e.g. Category:Image (Actor).

I've just been through the last months worth of uploaded images. You are still not adding a description or a source to the majority of your uploads. I have tagged the ones I cannot fix on my own for deletion, please can you sort them out. The latest two today don't have licensing tags either.

Please can you say where you get an image from - we can't claim we are making fair use of an image unless we establish that we know who the copyright holder is. Please can you give a URL if they come from another website.

Please can you state what your images show - this allows someone who is not familiar with the content to read the description and work out who or what is in the image, this is especially useful to editors when they are working with galleries and writing captions for images that they did not upload.

I've been asking you to follow the image policy for several months now, I am starting to feel really discouraged by seemingly being ignored. I have archived your talk page in case you have been missing my messages because they are not at the bottom of your talk page.--Opark 77 (talk) 15:51, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

As I said, I was concerned that you have not been reading my messages and that is born out by your suggestion that I last contacted you about this in May.

• Here are my edits on June 14.
• Here are my edits from last night.

I am upset that you think I am not showing good form. I think it is reasonable to offer to work with uploaders to add the required information themselves. I have found that I am spending upwards of 8 hours of editing time every month working on our images. I initially tried to do everything myself. I found that it was such a drain on my time resources that I was not contributing what I wanted to the wiki, and was not enjoying the time I volunteered here. With the aim of spending less time working on the site's images I came up with the idea that I would do it for an editor the first time they got it wrong and then show them what I had done so they could replicate that next time. I would then expect them to be able to follow the policy but would be open to helping them if they did not understand what to do.

Where I know that I have made an editor aware of the policy, they have not responded to my message and they are continuing to break the policy then I threaten deletion of their images. Yes I am able to correct some of these images but I do not think it is right for this wiki to rely solely on my time to get the images in the state we want them. I am happy to be the lead editor in curating our images. I am happy to spend more time on it than anyone else does. However, I do want the rest of the community here to try to work with me. I have tried a softly softly approach and have been ignored. I am now trying to be more assertive about images to protect my limited time resources. I can do everything here, but I don't have time to. It is not fair of you to place expectations on me to handle all of our image issues when I am a volunteer just like anyone.

I have been open and polite in my messages. I have invited people to come back to me for help if they need it. I am saying this is wrong and you got it wrong so the onus is on you to fix it. I am happy to help you to fix it. If you are not willing to put the effort into getting it right then I am afraid we can not use it. I don't think that is bad form. I think it is a fair and reasonable way of ensuring a decent standard of image uploading from our contributors while leaving me with enough time to contribute to other areas of the wiki. Have you got a better way of handling this?--Opark 77 (talk) 17:15, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

You can check the history of your talk page to see who edited it and when. That way you don't need to re-read anything and can see exactly what was added. I didn't realise that you weren't aware of this functionality. I regret that my messages failed to reach you. I avoided adding them to the foot of the page because repeating the same header more than once in an article breaks the section linking. In future I will try to be inventive with my topic names so that things go to the foot of your talk page.

That aside I would still appreciate a response about how you would like to handle image policy violations in future. Have you got an alternate approach? Do you still think I was showing bad form?--Opark 77 (talk) 21:30, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind words about my contributions.

I don't think it is appropriate or fair to call the Image Policy at present Draconian. It is not prescribing death for any who violate it, it merely asks the uploader to provide four simple pieces of information about the image they are adding. My approach to enforcing the policy is to point out where people have failed to meet these simple requirements, offer help and a one week window to correct them, and then to delete the image if it is still not up to our standard.

I also disagree with your characterisation of requiring four bits of information as constituting a "lengthy form". If you use the cut and paste templates that I have taken the time to provide then it is even less information, because the licensing tag is already in place for you.

Parts of the image policy originated with you. It was you who wrote that you wanted to avoid uploading duplicate images to the wiki. In order to weed out duplicate images it is necessary to appropriately categorize and name the images we have so that they can easily be compared to one another. I have spent hours going through our images to weed out duplicates and to ensure that they are correctly categorized because you asked that we avoid duplicates. Having reached a high standard of image use because of the efforts of myself and others, I think it behooves us as a wiki to have an image policy that maintains that standard, rather than allowing poor (or no) categorization and random image names to eradicate the hard work that has been done.

I am taking sole responsibility for policing the simple image policy that I modified. However, I don't believe that policing the image policy translates into me being left to do all the work on every image that fails to meet the requirements of the policy. I think it should be enough that I rigorously check every image that is uploaded and then enter a dialogue with the uploader where they have failed to meet the requirements of the policy, explaining where they have failed and what they need to do to correct it. If the uploader is not willing to spend further time getting their images up to the standard we require then I think it is reasonable for me to also spend no further time on that image, and to remove it for failing to meet our simple, four piece of information minimum. Nothing deleted from a wiki is ever truly gone, we have a deletion log and anyone with admin rights can restore deleted images where the uploader comes back with good reason to do so.

I am not saying that I don't have time to police the policy. I am saying that I am at the limit of the time I have and therefore will not spend time policing the policy and then doing all the work to correct any violations of the policy. I am happy to go on patrolling new images and discussing images that fail to meet our requirements with the uploader. I object to being told that doing so is bad form. I think I am being reasonable and fair in my approach. Once again I am asking if you have an alternative approach that you would like me to follow?

If you disagree with the image policy then by all means we should start a wider discussion about it. I think the onus is on you to do that because you are the one objecting to it.--Opark 77 (talk) 10:44, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

AbsenceEdit

I am sorry I've been barely active the past week or two, and particularly this weekend. I have been preparing for my sister's wedding (which I have mentioned before). It will last the rest of today, Sunday, and now I must go out the door to leave for the wedding ceremony itself.

If I'm not back, avenge my death.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:00, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

Faith of the Seven mergeEdit

I merged the content from "the Seven" into "Faith of the Seven"; how does it look? Should we delete "The Seven"? Or are all of the extra images of the Seven (which I added in a Gallery) too clunky, thus warranting a separate page? I do hope later seasons show us more artwork of the Seven from the insides of septs and such. But for now, I don't know. At any rate, this is what it would look like if all the content from "the Seven" were indeed merged. I leave the decision to you, ser.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:47, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

Good Game ReviewEdit

Hi Werthead--

I'm the new gaming guy inside Wikia, and I noticed your review of the Game of Thrones RPG. I loved it - very well written with some good arguments made. This is a bit outside of the Game of Thrones wiki, but I'm wondering if you're interested in doing more long-form pieces for Wikia in the games category.

What are those pieces, you ask? Um, I have no idea as of yet. But there are a bunch of big games coming out over the next few months, and I'm sure we could figure something out.

Ping me if you're interested and, regardless, I loved the GOT RPG review. Hope all is well!

George lizzunchbox

All roads lead to King's LandingEdit

Your input would be greatly valued, Ser: [1] Particularly, I'm confused about where exactly the Battle of the Trident occurred, the crossings of the River Road or of the Kingsroad, and which of those two crossings is thus the "Ruby Ford". Moreover, why would the rebel army, after coming from the Battle of the Bells in the Riverlands, be coming from the north side of the Trident to the ford? My functional guess is that they were already in the process of retreating north to join with their Stark and Arryn allies after Ashford...but those allies already met them at Stony Sept. Maybe they pulled back north of the Trident to consolidate? --The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:17, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

I see. Well, I think that we can logically conclude that the Kingsroad crossing is the Ruby Ford, on account of the fact that when the royal/Stark party is heading from Winterfell to King's Landing via the King's Road, Arya leaves within walking distance to check out the "Ruby Ford" for all the rubies. In and of itself that seems to fit. The bigger question is why the rebel army would be on the north side of the river after mostly joining up at the Battle of the Bells; but its already been strongly implied that Robert wanted to retreat north to consolidate his strength. I mean the war lasted over a year between Gulltown and when the Siege of Storms End was lifted; maybe months were spent as each side consolidated after the Bells, with Rhaegar raising the Crownlands army joined by the Dornish, while the rebels consolidated north of the Trident. Though there are some questions about the location of the Battle of the Green Fork. Well, I'm not going to worry about the battle things too much as we have Lands of Ice and Fire coming up eventually. This should at least answer the roads questions. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:30, September 25, 2012 (UTC)

Concept artEdit

I'm not sure how or if we can use screenshots of this concept art ([2] of the White Walkers, or link to it, or perhaps make an article about the concept artist, I'm not sure.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:58, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

Yi Ti Edit

Please remind me; in which episode is Yi Ti mentioned?

Yi Ti is mentiond in the companion book Inside HBO's Game of Thrones, which is a canon resource for the Wiki to use since it was written by producer-writer Bryan Cogman.--Werthead (talk) 17:26, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Hello. I'm a brazilian journalist writing a piece about the speculations surrounding G.R.R.M'S The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring. Could I send you a couple of questions on the subject? Thanks a lot!

My email is jfranciscobotelho@yahoo.com.br.

José Francisco Botelho – Superinteressante Magazine.

SteelshanksEdit

​Bran has never been referred to as "Brandon", yet he's listed as such. Under that precedent I think the article should return to its previous name.Gonzalo84 (talk) 06:25, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

I think that might be excessive in Bran's case, given how prevalent "Brandon" is in established Stark names like "Bran/Brandon the Builder" etc.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:47, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Grand MaesterEdit

Regarding Grand Maester; is the Grand Maester the head of the order of Maesters, much as the High Septon is head of the Faith of the Seven? Or is the ruling body the assembled Conclave of Archmaesters? Was there a Grand Maester before the Targaryen Conquest, or was it specifically created for the Red Keep and king on the Iron Throne? While we're on the subject, am I correct in assuming that literally no indication has been given in the books about the origins and development of the maesters? My guess is that this has something to do with the subplot about how the maesters are trying to make a world without magic, based on science and reason; that their origins have some plot relevance. Suffice to say, my assumption was that they are a creation of the Andals, brought over in the Andal Invasion, but even this I'm not sure on. I'm going to fix up the Maesters page but I really need you to double-check it.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:49, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Agreed; indeed, I kind of assumed (well, hoped) that we will be finding out more about the Maesters in World of Ice and Fire; and given that it will give us the definitive answers in a year or so, I'm content with just tabling the issue. Anyway, I did a major revamp of the Maesters page, please double-check (I don't mean to shove work onto others, I mean word of admins is final, so if my attempts don't match standards I hope someone else can fix them up; but I like to think I get the ball rolling).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:57, January 20, 2013 (UTC)

Formal vote for banning needs your attentionEdit

I've started a formal vote to ban Ch'Vyalthan: [3]. I have assembled a long list of evidence, but please read through all of it. I started the vote last Tuesday, so it should be due next Tuesday, but he's really not getting the message and is binge-editing even more. I think we at least need the other (active) admins to weigh in on the matter. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:09, January 25, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your attention, but two questions about your response:

Late in the day, but I agree. I haven't been as active day-to-day as in the past recently, as other people have been doing a great job getting on with things. If I'd know about this, I'd have contributed sooner. What is more concerning is this pattern of behaviour recurring on the ASoIaF Wikia, which is going to have to be addressed there as well.

1 - Does this mean you favor a permanent ban, not just a one month ban? (see subheading "blocking" on the ban vote page, where I just raised this question).

2 - What pattern of behavior over on the ASOIAF wikia? I'm aware that he's been posting there but didn't know how horrendous it was. We started noticing that, possibly due to Wiki-Addiction in the past 3-4 weeks when (due to Christmas break) more of us had time to respond to Ch'Vyalthan's antics, when we began to block, revise, or revert his crazy editing, he'd apparently burn off his excess energy, his excess compulsion to edit, by spending time over on the ASOIAF Wikia...even as Gonzalo84 was directly ordering him to immediately clean up editing messes he'd created. I'm not aware of specifics, however, I was going to suggest that you use your admin powers over on ASOIAF wikia to ban him from there as well, because A - from what I saw, his work wasn't that great there, and B - to prevent him from repositioning himself there, possibly leading to an ugly confrontation down the road. He needs to be out, away from anything online Game of Thrones wiki related.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:37, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

I have gone over to ASoIaF wikia and noticed that, indeed, Ch'vyalthan's work there is just as bad as his activity here.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 06:57, January 28, 2013 (UTC)

This matter still needs attention.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:41, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

Has a decision been reached on this permanent banning? (Forum:Formal request to permanently ban Ch'vyalthan#Permanent Ban?).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:18, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

Wikia AlliancesEdit

Hello Werthead!

First off, thanks for participating in the Wikia Wide Fantasy Fellowship! We're bringing that web ring to a close, as you may have noticed. However, the event was such a success that we want to launch another opportunity to tie wiki communities closer together and promote all your wonderful content!

There are actually three alliances to choose from: Fantasy, Sci-Fi, and Heroes! All are broadly defined, so your wiki may fit. Check out the Alliance Page for more details and fill out the Choose Your Alliance Page to sign up!

Best, Jorge (profile)•(talk) 00:17, January 30, 2013 (UTC)

Summer Islands and SothoryosEdit

I added the Summer Islands to the Sothoryos template and added the Sothoryos navbox to the Summer Islands; technically they're sort of like the Azores or Canary Islands, far out into the sea and not quite part of any continent. However, I think we should loosely consider them as part of Sothoryos on the wiki because: 1 - culturally/ethnically, the inhabitants of both the Summer Islands and Sothoryos are notably dark-skinned, and thus not really like Westeros or Essos, 2 - Having received my copy of The Lands of Ice and Fire, we can confirm that the northernmost of the Summer Islands is sort of equidistant from Westeros and Essos, while the southern end is also equidistant from Sothoryos. It's roughly equidistant from all three continents. However, if we associate it with no continent at all, it will be more difficult for TV-first readers to find (a book-first fan might encounter "Summer Islands" in text and look it up; but a TV-first fan going through this wiki has to stumble across it, if we're lucky). Thus it makes more sense to associate the Summer Islands with one of the three continents instead of leaving them isolated, and Sothoryos makes the most sense out of the three. What do you think, ser?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 13:42, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

What do we do about Ibben or Great Moraq... I think those should be considered "indenpendent" islands.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 15:39, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Well, much as Iceland is lumped in with Europe, I'd put Ibben with Essos: seeing as the Ibbenese also have colonies along the north shore of Essos. Real-life "continents" are often based on tectonic plates and fault lines, though in the age of discovery or even ancient times this was often arbitrary. Where did Aristotle think "Africa" ended and "Asia" began? Sothoryos and Ibben aside...I have no frelling idea how to handle Great Moraq. Is it considerd part of Essos, Sothoryos, or possibly neither? Other than that the Stone Cow of Faros is there (which would imply it is urbanized and not uninhabited like the Isle of Cedars), we have no real information on the place. This is of course presuming that Season 3's Viewer's Guide map will be updated to reflect The Lands of Ice and Fire. I checked internet archive, and the new viewer's guide last season only went up within a week's time of the premiere. And again, my bigger concern is for TV-first fans who might not know what they're looking for, so we should put these things into existing templates instead of isolating them, for ease of access.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:51, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Okay then. So the decision is: the Summer Islands are independent of any continent, Great Moraq isn't in the TV series yet so we shouldn't waste time on it, and Ibben should probably be part of Essos.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:09, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

Season 2 deleted scenesEdit

The Season 2 box set apparently includes 4 deleted scenes; Varys and Littlefinger after Blackwater, Loras and Margaery as Loras mourns Renly's death, Sandor asking "little bird" Sansa to sing, and Doreah killing Irri. How should we handle these deleted scenes? We've already made note of the Doreah scene, and I think that a it stands we consider it "non-canonical" (as it wasn't in the books, isn't in a finished episode, and wildly out of character). The SanSan scene didn't really add much that was "new" though it incorporated a bit more of that book subplot (more of a nod; they've turned Sansa into just a victim, not planning escape, though I understand time constraints limited this); Varys and Littlefinger doesn't really add much either; I mean it's good acting but it's kind of a retread of earlier stuff (maybe they could move it to the Season 3 premiere?). But out of all four, the one with the Tyrells is a real shame that it wasn't in a finished episode: we actually see Margaery and Loras interacting as siblings, which we barely saw before in Season 2, plus actually following through on Loras mourning Renly (I don't think Margaery was being condescending, just that as in the finished episode when Littlefinger comes in, she isn't trying to belittle Loras' pain, just pointing out that they're in danger and must think quickly to plan their next move). Enjoyable to show (if my hopeful interpretation is true) that the Tyrells have none of the internal rivalries in the Lannisters or Baratheons (or even the Starks). I enjoyed it most just because it was starting to show plot dynamics centering around groups of characters or other major Houses other than the Starks and Lannisters, i.e. when we get scenes just about the Greyjoys; much as the books start out focusing on the Starks and Lannisters, but gradually widens to become more complex and show other Houses with their own agendas and even their own narrative POV (i.e. the Martells have no particular stake in the Starks). So the point is I feel bad that this Tyrell scene was simply deleted; is there any way we can put it in an article? It doesn't violate continuity, I think it was just cut for time; Memory Alpha often puts info from deleted scene into the core text of a character article, but in a separate italicized out-of-universe paragraph explaining "this was from a deleted scene".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:28, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

I agree these should be added, along with the proper deleted scene tag.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 18:55, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

TidyNetwork in-text advertisementsEdit

I'm noticing a lot of in-text linked advertisements for something called TidyNetwork - is this some sort of new ad program by Wikia, or a virus in my computer? If so, how should I address this? Google search is proving unreliable.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:59, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

No, wait, these "TidyNetwork" in-text ad links are even appearing on messageboards, it appears to be my browser/computer. I'm not sure of how to remove this; do you know of any trusted removal tools?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:04, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

Vandals Is ComingEdit

With Season 3 just weeks away, the amount of vandals will surely increase. Are we going to take special measures, or we'll just cleanup after each vandalism or spamming like last year?. Keep in mind that last year we suffered a massive vandal attack that took several hours to repair. At the very least I think we should elevate The Dragon Demands to admin so he can help us weed out and cleanup these interventions.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:19, February 25, 2013 (UTC)

New LayoutEdit

Also, with the new dragon-shadow poster already published I think we should adapt the wiki layout.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:19, February 25, 2013 (UTC)

AffiliatesEdit

Hello! With Game of Thrones coming back so soon, how would you feel about starting up an Affiliates program on this wiki to get more traffic and visitors? It is a great site and we could showcase it a bit more by getting word out to other wikis and external websites so people can see all the hard work you and other admins have put into it! Affiliating with other sites can bring more traffic from external websites which would benefit the wiki in the long run.

For examples on how the affiliate program works, check out the Hunger Games Wiki and Shadowhunters Wiki! It would be set up in exactly the same format with a link on the navigation bar for people to see. Please let me know if you are interested in this and I will start reaching out to other sites!

Grace 00:48, February 26, 2013 (UTC)

wait. how did you send me a message

are you on, you just sent me a message, or was it a bot. I put the huge spoilet on robs page

Layout Edit

I am currently working with the Wikia Staff to spruce up the Wiki to Season 3 of GoT. QueenBuffy 18:09, February 26, 2013 (UTC)

Pre-emptive LockingEdit

I've already had to ban someone today for Red Wedding vandalism. While we have some vandalism now and again for things like "What Dany does in Season 3", possibly even "how Jaime gets injured in Season 3" (we'll have to keep an eye on that one in particular)...nothing, oh but nothing, can match the drive with which vandals will come out of the woodwork to post spoilers related to the Red Wedding. It's the single most shocking event in the series (arguably more than Ned dying, given how sudden it was, and in the sheer scale of it) But this isn't just a future possibility; we've already seen, time and again, since Season 1 that the vandals feel utterly compelled to come onto this wiki to spoil this...now it's almost upon us.

To this end, I propose that we lock the following articles from Anonymous editing immediately:

• Robb Stark
• Catelyn Stark
• Grey Wind
• Direwolves
• Walder Frey
• Roose Bolton
• The Twins

And if vandals create new accounts simply for the sake of adding such things we may have to upgrade the lock, but we'll wait until it comes to that.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:53, February 26, 2013 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and locked the mentioned articles, and House Frey as well. New and unregistered users won't be able to edit them until we see fit. --Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:05, February 26, 2013 (UTC)

Color schemeEdit

I had prepared a new color scheme for the wiki in preparation for season 3, since this black and orange was set up for Season 2. Once the new layout is available I'll set it up.Gonzalo84 (talk) 17:03, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

What do you think of the new color scheme?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 20:28, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Wikia front page House game?Edit

Given that Ch'Vyalthan shut is down for three months (over Christmas Break no less, when we have the most possible free time to work), the Season 3 premiere is only 26 days away, yet we still need to heavily revise and edit Season 1 and to an extent Season 2. We didn't "finish" many of these things, the few of us who stayed in the off-season were overburdened with work.

This is not a forum, it is a wiki. A dedicated, serious attempt to make a mature, professional encyclopedic guide to Game of Thrones. It is not an imageboard.

As I said, we are currently facing our "nightmare scenario" of barely 26 days to go, yet a massive backlog of work. Under 10 regulars are producing this "actual work" while we keep getting flybys on blogs which produce nothing of substance....and serve to distract from actual contributions to the wiki itself.

Who is User:Porterfield, who has now inserted some sort of Wikia House contest onto our front page? We didn't ask for this, it's a distraction, and it shoved Mance Rayder off the front page.

He shouldn't be able to do this without consulting us. Did he consult you before doing this? Making it a blog post would be one thing, I don't support having it on our front page. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:41, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

Starter Guide VideoEdit

Hey there, I created a video that's a recap of seasons 1 and 2 using stills (creative commons) and GOT acoustic cover music. I have a draft of it and I'd love to show you and get your feedback/input as we're interested in putting it up on this wiki. I could skype it to you, my skype is peter.kalmbach1

Lemme know!

Peter 23:36, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

HBO makes quite useful season recap and refresher videos.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:13, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Small world Edit

Hi Werthead. I couldn't help but notice that you live in Colchester. I'm originally from Brightlingsea myself. It's a small world:) 250px 17:55, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

Cersei and Robert's childEdit

I was going over "The Kingsroad" again: I remembered that a change from the books was that Cersei said she actually had a black-haired boy by Robert, during the first year of her marriage when she honestly thought she might be able to make it work out. I think this was done to try to humanize Cersei into more of a three dimensional character (admittedly, this might just be because it is more difficult in the change from book to screen to convey character nuance; i.e. removing Catelyn's "it should have been you" line to Jon Snow, which even GRRM said was wildly out of character to underscore her grief - this wouldn't come across well in a TV episode, in which everything gets condensed) -- thus, "Cersei outright had an abortion when she got pregnant by Robert" from the books, might be taken as too strong. I'm not too upset, I understand that adaptation condensation is problematic for conveying shades of character nuance. Anyway, I always remembered this as a "stillborn" child, but rewatching the episode, Cersei makes it clear that he actually lived for some amount of time; he was alive, but died of a fever. This is a fairly big change for the TV continuity: we normally wouldn't put stillbirths in family trees, or have say, wiki-pages about them, but wouldn't a new royal child warrant an entry and place in the family tree? Problem is we don't have a name to use. Did it even survive to be named on its "nameday"...mere hours later? What fever works that fast? How should we approach this? Way back when "The Kingsroad" aired the wiki had bigger things to set up, and for a long time I thought it was a stillbirth, but now that it's "an infant that died of a fever in Cersei's first year of marriage", I'm not sure if we should make something for that.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:54, March 19, 2013 (UTC)

Hello from Wikia! Edit

We noticed all the great work you've been doing on the Game of Thrones wiki and I was wondering you'd be interested in a brief Skype chat this week. We are working on a couple of programs that I think might be of interest to you and I'd love your thoughts. Please let me know if you're interested and we can find a time. Thanks! 

Cshannon (talk) 20:10, March 19, 2013 (UTC)

Irri actress' reason for leaving the showEdit

Check out the Irri page; there was always some confusion about exactly why the actress had to leave; I thought it was something to do with her EU visa, but details were murky. This seems important enough, and sensitive enough, of a topic that I think it needs your executive attention.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:17, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

MacumbaEdit

In "Lord Snow" Robb remarks that Old Nan once told him that the sky is blue because "the whole world is inside the eye of a giant named Macumba". Is this worth even having an article for? It's not in the books.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:57, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

Starter Guide VideoEdit

Hi again, here's a link to the video I made - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7aJyqsxbv0 Please check it out, I'd love to put it up in a blog post on the wiki!

Peter 19:34, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

Season 2 quizEdit

Season 2 quiz coming, just a heads-up...

@ (profile)•(talk)•(email) 21:49, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

CestWhatEdit

I realize this will take much time, but please read the discussions on the Talk page of User:CestWhat, start to finish. There are times when you're supposed to realize that it's time to walk away, and pass the problem on for a superior's deliberation instead of overreacting. This is one of those times. I have other work to get onto for Season 3 so I'm going to leave that alone and follow whatever decision you have.

Basic problem is CestWhat being adamant about separating book from TV continuity, even in the face of counter-intuitive situations (i.e. remember months ago when there was that big debate over if Rodrik Greyjoy died at Seagard or King's Landing, based on a stray comment in the Viewer's Guide?). Apparently the in-episode guide will generically say that Robb is in "the Riverlands" in Season 2, even when they reference locations from the Westerlands in on-screen dialogue....CestWhat adamantly waves this aside as that Robb's camp was "a day's ride" from the Crag...this his army rode to the Crag from Riverrun in a day, then rode back. Theon, in Winterfell...the other smegging side of the continent...tells Yara that "Robb went to the Riverlands"...this is just him speaking loosely (Robb went to Riverrun at first). Later dialogue where the Lannister war council says he's "north of Ashemark"? CestWhat waves this away as bad intelligence.

He frequently resorts to saying that he "heard in an interview" that the TV show condensed it so Robb is in the Riverlands, not the Westerlands. Possible, but he has no idea where that supposed interview is, has put no effort into finding it (he moved on to wasting my time with the soundtrack, see below), and I think he's just selectively remembering what he wants.

In and of itself this would just be picking over guide material --- meanwhile, I think that the Irri page needed to stress that "just because Doreah kills Irri in a deleted scene doesn't necessarily mean she killed her off-screen officially, the scene was deleted"....again, CestWhat feels this is me pushing a books-first agenda, when it's really just common sense; people wouldn't jump to the conclusion that Doreah personally killed Irri, if they hadn't seen it in a deleted scene. I just left a message urging caution.

Meanwhile, as we're all racing around to get ready for Season 3, he found a relic article on "Main Title" and insisted we waste time doing a write-up for it. I told him that between "Title credits" and "Season 1 Soundtrack" is where such material should go, why make a third page? And, that if there was music info, it should start out on "Season 1 Soundtrack" and only be branched out later. Then he started insisting he knew musical themes and melody schemes about it ("it's a waltz, that means it's about a cyclical story!") which is heavily original research, not links to statements by the composer about leitmotifs.

Moving along, that "Guide to Characters Significantly Changed Between Books and TV series" I've been tinkering with isn't perfect, but on the talk page we got into a protracted argument about it....until he ultimately stated that he wasn't even worried about Talisa-controversy....but that the very idea of pointing out "Asha Greyjoy was renamed to Yara to avoid similarity to Osha, even though ironically Asha Greyjoy is a much more important character" etc. The very idea of pointing out "differences between books and series" seems controversial to him.

That, and in the past couple of days he's just generically been challenging various decisions by admins; the concept that "no means no" with utter finality hasn't occurred to him. Reverting edits Admins reverted back, that kind of thing.

Finally, he even linked to a youtube clip of a scene between Robert and Cersei, on a talk page...then adamantly insisted that he had linked to "an article" (like Vulture or something), not posting a direct link.

He's also been making frequent spelling mistakes; when I've called him on this, he bluntly said that he noticed "the Admins are the kind of people who are on top of that sort of thing"....expecting us to waste time acting as his cleanup crew.

In short, CestWhat has proven to be a handful. I personally want to use the youtube clip incident (combined with general misbehavior and arguing with admins) as a shallow and cynical excuse to throw him off the wiki. But as such unilateral action may prove controversial, I'm passing the judgement on to you rather than act hastily. Personally, this guy questioning many of our basic decisions isn't something I need during the flurry of work surrounding the Season 3 premiere. It's all there on his talk page.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:44, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Knights and NobilityEdit

Are knights considered nobility under the law? That is, even a "landed knight" is not a "lord" and thus does not have the power of justice. Even so, does even a hedge knight, or knighted landless sellsword, technically possess the benefits of a noble-born under the law? (i.e. the right to demand trial by combat, which apparently the smallfolk do not have). --The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:52, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

I believe they actually do have a right to invoke it, but, having little skill at arms or noone to champion them they do not actually do.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 17:24, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

Inactive Admins Edit

Good evening Werthead. The Dragon Demands and I were discussing the procedure/protocol to take on Admins who have been inactive for quite some time. We figured we should bring it to you. For example, User:LordofOnions is about 2 years inactive and User:KarinS is a year this month. What is the time limit for an Admin who doesn't contribute, to lose their Admin rights? We were curious. Hope you enjoyed the premiere!! QueenBuffy 03:09, April 2, 2013 (UTC)

This remains a concern.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:12, April 12, 2013 (UTC)

"Talisa Stark"Edit

What are we supposed to do about characters who marry during the course of the series? We haven't (and shouldn't) used "Cersei Baratheon" because no one ever calls her that (though the article mentions this at the start). Margaery married Renly but it's also not used, so I'd stick with "Margaery Tyrell" (particularly for the sake of TV-first fans who have trouble keeping House allegiances straight). However, the HBO Viewer's Guide now calls her "Talisa Stark", and to be blunt, the idea that she would be associated with the Maegyr triarchs of Volantis was absurd, no one knows who the heck the Maegyrs are, and on the principle of "helping noobs keep the house allegiances straight", should we change it to Talisa Stark?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:20, April 2, 2013 (UTC)

KingsguardsEdit

Without a "Rainbow Guard" in th TV series, I've just been using a "Renly's Kingsguard" subsection on the "Kingsguard" page. I also thought it increased visibility. But last episode established that Daenerys has a "Queensgard". So should we split those off, to make a separate "Queensguard" page? What would we title the page for Renly? Just "Renly's Kingsguard?" (I hope that a subsequent episode will have Brienne retroactively tell Jaime that she was a member of his "Rainbow Guard", but I doubt it will happen). Further questions: Why doesn't Stannis have a Kingsguard? It's odd that no one even comments on it; Robb and Balon don't because their regions don't have knights (and they're only seceding, not actively claiming the throne). This late into the books, no one comments on it. I thought it might be because the Lord of Light religion isn't as into that, but knights still serve Stannis; or is it just because in total contrast to Renly, he doesn't fixate on pomp and ceremony?

Second question: is "Queensgard" a term that Daenerys made up, or is that what the Kingsguard would formally be known as under a female monarch? There simply hasn't been a Ruling Queen before; my hope is that the upcoming novella by GRRM will reveal if Rhaenyra Targaryen had her own "Queensgard".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:39, April 7, 2013 (UTC)

Princes in the TowerEdit

I don't know how much the "public consciousness" in England is actively aware of the Princes in the Tower. Most American viewers probably wouldn't recognize this - except anyone educated enough to have seen a production of Richard III. The "man on the street" wouldn't get this. Given that the series is loosely inspired by the War of the Roses, I have to ask: would people in England think that Williem Lannister and Tion Frey are partially influenced by the Princes in the Tower? I see an echo of it there.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:53, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

Io9 and the Pilot episode scriptEdit

A report on Io9.com says that a leaked copy of the script for the pilot episode is circulating around the internet: http://io9.com/how-different-was-the-unaired-pilot-of-game-of-thrones-473593778

Of course, even io9 stresses that even if it is real, it might only be one snapshot-view of the writing process, i.e. not even the final shooting script used for the pilot episode, only one out of a series of numerous heavy revisions.

Moreover, the io9.com article linked to our own article on the pilot episode.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:07, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Making Game of ThronesEdit

Good production info on the latest Making Game of Thrones blog update: [4]. It turns out the production team made only one ship prop (I think), so the Balerion (ship) that Daenerys appears on in episode 1 of Season 3 is a re-use of that prop, and they filmed that part at its mooring in Northern Ireland - thus the only scene in Season 3 that Dany filmed in Northern Ireland and not Morocco (at first I thought this was her first Northern Ireland scene, but I quickly remembered that the Dothraki Sea scenes were filmed in Northern Ireland as well, only a few shots were in Malta). My question is, they said it was "on fire" during Blackwater - is it a re-use of Black Betha, or Fury? (Fury wasn't "on fire" though; another of the Fury-class dromonds? Were the other ships on fire in that scene a re-use of the Black Betha or Fury prop-ships? Or was there only one prop ship which pulled double-duty for Black Betha and Fury, with minor set redressing?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 13:48, April 18, 2013 (UTC)

SkinnerEdit

Wait, how do we know that "Skinner" actually is the book character "Skinner"? Apparently he's just credited as "Master Torturer", and now he's dead, unlike Skinner in the books, so maybe someone else is going to be "Skinner"?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:11, April 24, 2013 (UTC)

I made that assumption based on the fact that Theon remembers Skinner flaying his finger and the Torturer putting the flaying knife right below his fingernail. Just move it and delete "Skinner"--Gonzalo84 (talk) 01:39, April 25, 2013 (UTC)

Confirmation on Jaehaerys IIEdit

Bryan Cogman answered some Q&A over on WinterIsComing.net, answered my question directly: http://winteriscoming.net/2013/04/ask-a-got-writer-bryan-cogman-on-the-writing-process-robb-and-talisa-and-renlys-peach

So yes, Jaehaerys II has been removed from the TV continuity (as you said, like Ultimate Marvel continuity). It's not as if I was particularly attached to Jaehaerys II...so much as this alters any potential prequel series about "Tales of Dunk and Egg", which will have to explain how a generally "good" character like Aegon V ended up having a son like the Mad King. Moreover, his answer was too concise; we still don't know how the Baratheons relate to the Targaryens, as if Jaehaerys II is omitted, I mean his whole generation omitted, then what of his sister who marred a Baratheon?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:11, April 25, 2013 (UTC)

Recommending Adminship Edit

I would like to recommend that The Boy Who Cried Direwolf is made an Admin. He has gone above and beyond the normal/everyday editor and proven himself to be a great user on the GoT Wiki. He has also been a user of distinction. With all the spammers/trollers, we could use an Admin like him. Just thought I'd give it a try :) QueenBuffy 18:21, April 23, 2013 (UTC)

I would also strongly support making the Bastard of Bolton an Administrator.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:10, April 24, 2013 (UTC)

GONZALO (draws sword): THE BOY WHO CRIED DIREWOLF IN THE NORTH!--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:46, April 24, 2013 (UTC)

I'm happy we'll have a House Bolton supporter to balance out (or replace) the proliferation of Stark supporters. Death to the dogs and cats of the Usurper.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:27, April 24, 2013 (UTC)

Go drink wildfire LOL.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 01:42, April 25, 2013 (UTC)

....well played, ser.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:44, April 25, 2013 (UTC)

Done :) --Werthead (talk) 12:51, April 25, 2013 (UTC)

Woah, somehow I missed this cozy little huddle:) I'm really flattered, thank you all: Buffy for the recommendation, and Dragon, Gonzalo, and Werthead for the support. I'll do my best.--250px 05:50, April 26, 2013 (UTC)

Featured articleEdit

We haven't been regularly updating our featured articles in a while. I realized that our front page still has Osha on it, which isn't really good as she doesn't do much in Season 3. My suggestion off the top of my head would be to change it to Free Folk.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:15, April 29, 2013 (UTC)

I was just about to change it- I was updating the entire page. I think it was Free Folk recently. What about "Giants"? Also, why is my little crown showing up in the feed every time my signature is used? Grrr QueenBuffy 05:20, April 29, 2013 (UTC)

Selyse's three stillborn sonsEdit

I'm not sure how to handle the addition that Selyse named three of her stillborn sons. AWOIAF would usually just make a note of this on the parent's page. At the least, I think it's a mistake to put it in the family tree; they were stillborn, those normally aren't included in the family tree, the Baratheon family tree template is already HUGE and cluttered, and putting in not one but three slots for three separate stillborn sons wouldn't greatly benefit navigation because no one would have a great need to look those up.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:08, April 29, 2013 (UTC)

No, I wouldn't put them on the family tree. There's not much point. A note on Stannis and Selyse's pages should be enough.--Werthead (talk) 18:19, April 29, 2013 (UTC)

In AWoIaF, even stillborn offspring or infants that died very young are mentioned in family trees--Gonzalo84 (talk) 00:05, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

Well it's using up a lot of space on the alreay-cramped Baratheon family tree. Our family trees have photos in them so they're much larger than those on AWOIAF. That, and they need to be easy to use for casual TV-fans. I'd advocate removing these three stillborn sons entirely from the family tree. At least, instead of having three separate infoboxes, can the tree be shortened to a single box that says "three stillborn sons; see Selyse" - much as the Robert part of the tree has a composite box for "many bastards; see Robert"?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:50, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

Black Walder or Walder Rivers?Edit

The official information was that Tim Plester would portray Black Walder, yet the viewers guide for "The Climb" states its Walder Rivers. Since you have the contacts could you please confirm?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 16:46, May 8, 2013 (UTC)

Pixie Le KnotEdit

Yikes, the actual Pixie Le Knot joined the wiki and posted up some screencaps; she confirmed her identity in her twitter feed; http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:PixieLeKnot#The_real_Pixie_Le_Knot -- I'm not sure how we're supposed to handle official cast and crew dropping in on here; you're the Founder of the Wiki, so I figured you'd need to know.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:22, May 8, 2013 (UTC)

TheonEdit

Book spoilers question:

Something which is starting to baffle me is...in the books...why did Ramsay Snow become so fixated on Theon Greyjoy, of all people? I understand that he enjoys sadistically torturing people - why not some random peasant? Why Theon? I mean, the simple logistics involved with devoting that much time and effort into torturing him - doesn't Ramsay do anything else? Or is he literally sitting around for hours every day wondering how he can specifically torture Theon? In which case...what is it about Theon that "set him off"? Is Theon somehow insulting to him? On a certain level, the most horrifying thing is the utter randomness of it. Of course, as Stannis finally pointed out later on, I'm not afraid of Ramsay: he has won no battles. Any idiot can tear the wings off a fly he's captured. The Bastard can be ruthless to those he has power over, but he's basically Joffrey without the fear of violence; he doesn't "do" anything, other than basic betrayals...--The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:58, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

Absence due to Britain tripEdit

I'm going on a trip to Britain for the next week starting today, so I will miss tonight's episode and be unable to update until I return next Monday, the night of Memorial Day; thankfully they're taking next week off, so I should be able to catch up on editing before...the events of episode 9. But I have barely been able to edit for episodes 6 and 7 as it stands (I was at least able to watch them, and make some notes, but not writeup full summaries). I'll be starting in Scotland then taking the train down to London, where I'll check out Dover castle. Problem is that my area of study is northern France, not England (part of why I sarcastically mock English things is simply medieval department humor; I'm into France, therefore Philip II Augustus is the hero of the story and John Lackland is the bad guy). Figures that I just missed the current season of Doctor Who.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:28, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

TalisaEdit

Anyway, when you can, please check out Talk:Talisa Stark; the "Talisa is a spy" theory is increasingly looking plausible. That youtube video pointing things out about this was a little over-the-top, but I realized that I was practically ignoring her earlier scenes in season 2 because I disliked them so much; on closer inspection, stuff like jokingly saying she is a Lannister spy when Robb asks what letter she's writing back in Season 2 sounds like a hint; or, that she's just trying way too hard to present herself as "I'm a foreigner who knows nothing about Westeros!" (she knows where Lannisport is, but claims she cannot find Winterfell on a map? (okay, she was in the Westerlands at the time, maybe she'd know the biggest local city in the region, but still). Really, all it would amount to is "we condensed Jeyne Westerling with her mother Sybell Spicer" - Jeyne's reaction to things hasn't really been given any focus in the past two books. Surprisingly plausible. What really clinched it was when David J. Peterson started acting shifty about what exactly Talisa was writing in her letter (the inside the episode guide shows the whole thing but it's written in Valyrian). The other thing I realized is they said that things would happen later in the season that "would even shock book fans", but nothing has happened yet which would particularly surprise book fans (yeah Ros died, but that wasn't that much of a game-changer, and "changing the books" albeit book-fans wouldn't know it was coming). This may ultimately be the explanation behind all of the baffling changes to her character, and more importantly, that the writers have been surprisingly silent on why exactly they made these changes; the answer they always give is "we needed to show what Robb was doing", but they avoided 1 - Why is she now from Volantis? 2 - why is she now a walking fantasy stereotype "healer-woman who speaks truth to power"? If it's all an act, that means her cliched performance was *supposed* to sound fake. Didn't Robb ever pause to question her background? Or that Volantene nobles are usually blondes?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:28, May 19, 2013 (UTC)